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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:32 pm 
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Round 3 Submissions

Judges, please be generous with regard to meeting the criteria, as there was a significant lack of clarity at the start of the round. Please have your rankings posted by 18:30 CT next Friday, 8/17.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:55 pm 
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I did the first half of comments but then I went out and got drunk and it doesn't seem fair to do half my grades while intoxicated so Imma wait til tomorrow to finish the rest of them

:duel:

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I tend to agree with Razor.

Pro Tour: YMTC: SECOND ONE IS OVER STAY TUNED FOR THIRD ONE
The BLOCK I'm currently pretending I'll finish: Fleets Of Ossia (complete!) | Wavebreak (complete!) | The Second Flood (in progress!)
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:51 pm 
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razorborne wrote:
I did the first half of comments but then I went out and got drunk and it doesn't seem fair to do half my grades while intoxicated so Imma wait til tomorrow to finish the rest of them

:duel:

There's a moral here- do your drinking early.

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Cato wrote:
CotW is a method for ranking cards in increasing order of printability.

*"To YMTC it up" means to design cards that have value mostly from a design perspective. i.e. you would put them in a case under glass in your living room and visitors could remark upon the wonderful design principles, with nobody ever worring if the cards are annoying/pointless/confusing in actual play

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:26 am 
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ok, comments and initial sorting done, and overall it was a very good round. lots of people in my "I love this" bucket, and literally none in my "this is a mess" bucket. even if you find yourself near the bottom of the list this round, your card was pretty solid.

:duel:

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I tend to agree with Razor.

Pro Tour: YMTC: SECOND ONE IS OVER STAY TUNED FOR THIRD ONE
The BLOCK I'm currently pretending I'll finish: Fleets Of Ossia (complete!) | Wavebreak (complete!) | The Second Flood (in progress!)
Razorborne and friends teach music theory to chumps like you: 12tone


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:50 pm 
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general note: I think the point of cards like this is to provide decent value if you're color-screwed or if you're just splashing the secondary color, so if your card is useless in mono-color I'm probably gonna knock it a few pegs, although obviously individual contexts may vary.

comments


rankings


again, overall a very good round so people near the bottom please don't take too much offense, it's just it's an ordinal system so someone's gotta be last.

:duel:

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I tend to agree with Razor.

Pro Tour: YMTC: SECOND ONE IS OVER STAY TUNED FOR THIRD ONE
The BLOCK I'm currently pretending I'll finish: Fleets Of Ossia (complete!) | Wavebreak (complete!) | The Second Flood (in progress!)
Razorborne and friends teach music theory to chumps like you: 12tone


Last edited by razorborne on Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:56 pm 
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Cool! I thought about the "destroy that creature instead" wording, but it seemed really wonky when the base effect could hit a player or planeswalker.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:37 pm 
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Quote:
arathinius



This guy averages 1 damage for . In fact, less: the first ping will cost you an average of . This is roughly in line with Flamekin Spitfire and Scalding Devil. I'm happy to admit that this is not aggressively costed or a first-pick, but this in line with precedent.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:21 pm 
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razorborne wrote:
rankings


again, overall a very good round so people near the bottom please don't take too much offense, it's just it's an ordinal system so someone's gotta be last.

:duel:


Um, I'm not ranked despite submitting a card :confused:

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:47 pm 
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arathinius wrote:
Quote:
arathinius



This guy averages 1 damage for . In fact, less: the first ping will cost you an average of . This is roughly in line with Flamekin Spitfire and Scalding Devil. I'm happy to admit that this is not aggressively costed or a first-pick, but this in line with precedent.

fair, but a couple points: neither of those cards requires a second color, both of them only require one colored mana per ping, neither of them requires a tap so you can keep using the body as well, and both of them provided definite returns on investment when you do put mana into it. they're also lower rarities, which coin flips don't tend to be. they sometimes pop up at uncommon, but usually in fairly straightforward settings that don't complicate the board too much. I think your card would have to be at least rare, which means the limited-balance arguments that make Spitfire and Devil so conservatively costed aren't as applicable here. again, I didn't hate the card, I just think the numbers are off.

razorborne wrote:
rankings


again, overall a very good round so people near the bottom please don't take too much offense, it's just it's an ordinal system so someone's gotta be last.

:duel:


Um, I'm not ranked despite submitting a card :confused:
whoops! must've forgot to add you into the list. I'll fix that now.

:duel:

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I tend to agree with Razor.

Pro Tour: YMTC: SECOND ONE IS OVER STAY TUNED FOR THIRD ONE
The BLOCK I'm currently pretending I'll finish: Fleets Of Ossia (complete!) | Wavebreak (complete!) | The Second Flood (in progress!)
Razorborne and friends teach music theory to chumps like you: 12tone


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:11 pm 
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@razerborne: I was worried about the amount of text as well, but feel like it was necessary to ETB tapped to prevent it from chumping during combat during your opponent’s turns and returning to bounce an opponent’s creature on your turns. Also - it might be more realistic that you get a decent number of Islands in your graveyard through self-mill - which is the strategy that I believe this card is designed to excel in.

A large part of this design was flavor (aesthetic) as well.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:27 pm 
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Flavortext :gross:

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:37 pm 
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For my card, the original version was just straight search, but WotC has been toying with limited "top X of the library" searches to cut down on shuffling and I thought I'd give that a spin. In retrospect I should have either just done basic search or upped the number to like seven to make it more likely not whiff.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:41 pm 
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Quote:

...the power creep is real. I do agree that the flavor text was a bit heavy handed, and that 3 damage would create more tension. However, I feel that having a card work too effectively against itself is actually bad design. In retrospect, I probably should have costed the main spell at :w: instead.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:49 pm 
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YingLung wrote:
Quote:

...the power creep is real. I do agree that the flavor text was a bit heavy handed, and that 3 damage would create more tension. However, I feel that having a card work too effectively against itself is actually bad design. In retrospect, I probably should have costed the main spell at :w: instead.

I agree: something like 5 damage would be too much. but I think 3 is probably the sweet spot, 'cause 4 is often the magic toughness in a lot of environments where a creature suddenly survives the cheap removal.

:duel:

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I tend to agree with Razor.

Pro Tour: YMTC: SECOND ONE IS OVER STAY TUNED FOR THIRD ONE
The BLOCK I'm currently pretending I'll finish: Fleets Of Ossia (complete!) | Wavebreak (complete!) | The Second Flood (in progress!)
Razorborne and friends teach music theory to chumps like you: 12tone


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:04 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:05 pm 
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Brief reminder to our judges that we'd like to have your rankings within the next 48 hours. Thanks to razorborne for being so prompt with rankings!

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:05 pm 
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Brief reminder to our judges that we'd like to have your rankings within the next 48 hours. Thanks to razorborne for being so prompt with rankings!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:16 am 
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Unfortunately I must agree with Raz's assessment of my card. I got caught up in a neat idea and neglected some very simple concerns.

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Cato wrote:
CotW is a method for ranking cards in increasing order of printability.

*"To YMTC it up" means to design cards that have value mostly from a design perspective. i.e. you would put them in a case under glass in your living room and visitors could remark upon the wonderful design principles, with nobody ever worring if the cards are annoying/pointless/confusing in actual play

TPrizesW
TPortfolioW


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:09 pm 
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I am very sorry about not having anything up yet. I will get grades up tomorrow asap.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:10 am 
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razorborne wrote:
fair, but a couple points: neither of those cards requires a second color, both of them only require one colored mana per ping, neither of them requires a tap so you can keep using the body as well, and both of them provided definite returns on investment when you do put mana into it. they're also lower rarities, which coin flips don't tend to be. they sometimes pop up at uncommon, but usually in fairly straightforward settings that don't complicate the board too much. I think your card would have to be at least rare, which means the limited-balance arguments that make Spitfire and Devil so conservatively costed aren't as applicable here. again, I didn't hate the card, I just think the numbers are off.


Note also these couple points:
- You get the first 1/2 a damage for free. Without the untap ability this guy is 1/2 of a Prodigal Sorceror.
- This guy's untappability is independent of the ping. It allows him to synergise with Presence of Gond etc. and gives him pseudo-vigilance (so you can keep the body if you like).
- Often it's the threat of a ping which does a lot of work in itself in dictating how combat goes. So the ability is worth more than 1/2 a normal ping.
- Coin-flipping cards are often low power level, probably to keep them out of competitive play where the randomness would be frustrating.


Which is to say: Yes, there are plenty of disanalogies that you can find either way, which is why the best evidence is existing cards.


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