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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:08 pm 
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Seems to soft imply one set though.
That's... kind of the vibe I'm getting too. Maro said the reason they waited so long with returning to Dominaria was that they were looking for a way to get it right. If they only give us one set, then my question would be, what have you guys been doing all those years?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:17 pm 
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It's a good question. Some potential answers involve the death of blocks freeing them to experiment since they're gambling 1/4 of a year rather than 1/2 or a full year, or the change to story structure without the block dynamic being more friendly to a static window-on-a-world rather and claiming that it was hard to progress Dominaria's story meaningfully. Some of those might actually have grounds in accuracy, at least a little.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:28 pm 
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I'm sure the death of the rigid block structure factors into it somehow, but eh, if anything they should use that new flexibility to make MORE than two sets, not less. But we ain't seen nothing yet. I'm still hoping for my three sets. Just getting one would be plain ridiculous. That would basically be them screwing it up intentionally just so that Maro can say returning to Dominaria was just a bad idea and he was right all along. I'm not kidding, if that happens I'll probably buy as much as I can of that set so I won't regret it later (if it's any good) and then ride into the sunset. I'm pretty close to really giving up all hope for Magic as it is.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:00 pm 
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I'm sure the death of the rigid block structure factors into it somehow, but eh, if anything they should use that new flexibility to make MORE than two sets, not less. But we ain't seen nothing yet. I'm still hoping for my three sets. Just getting one would be plain ridiculous. That would basically be them screwing it up intentionally just so that Maro can say returning to Dominaria was just a bad idea and he was right all along. I'm not kidding, if that happens I'll probably buy as much as I can of that set so I won't regret it later (if it's any good) and then ride into the sunset. I'm pretty close to really giving up all hope for Magic as it is.


Yikes :blink: mind if I ask why? I understand Standard has been a mess lately and the Gatewatch is... controversial... but is it just those two factors that have you poised to leave? Or is there more to it?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:21 pm 
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There is still the possibility that the one Dominaria set is very good and plays very well (probably in the style of Tevish Szat's moment-in-time snapshot---really clever insight, by the way). Can we at least wait to see an actual card before we declare the set DOA?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:39 am 
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I'm sure the death of the rigid block structure factors into it somehow, but eh, if anything they should use that new flexibility to make MORE than two sets, not less. But we ain't seen nothing yet. I'm still hoping for my three sets. Just getting one would be plain ridiculous. That would basically be them screwing it up intentionally just so that Maro can say returning to Dominaria was just a bad idea and he was right all along. I'm not kidding, if that happens I'll probably buy as much as I can of that set so I won't regret it later (if it's any good) and then ride into the sunset. I'm pretty close to really giving up all hope for Magic as it is.


Yikes :blink: mind if I ask why? I understand Standard has been a mess lately and the Gatewatch is... controversial... but is it just those two factors that have you poised to leave? Or is there more to it?
Well, how much time do you have? But to put things into perspective a bit, I don't mean I'm actually considering quitting the game in the sense that I'd stop playing and/or sell my cards. I love playing the game, my playgroup is great, and I'll keep playing as long as my hands can hold the cards and my eyes can see them. But I certainly feel like I might need an indefinite break from following the storyline and caring about the products WotC puts out. I'd be totally fine with just buying singles and really old boosters for chaos draft. And of course I still have quite a few old Magic books lying around that I haven't had the time to read so far and that I really look forward to devouring.

I don't care about competitive formats in the slightest, I just mentioned Standard because WotC's stance on Standard will likely determine whether they're prepared to reprint 'Goyf or not. I was just wondering because it was first printed as a future shifted card in Future Sight, and ususally they try to reprint those if they can find a plane where they 'belong'. 'Goyfs are from Dominaria, and now we're technically in the future, so it would be a flavourful thing to do.

But yeah, the Gatewatch is certainly a major factor, especially because I still refuse to be cool with their new post-Origins incarnations. Which is why I boycotted Magic Origins and Kaladesh block entirely. I know it's silly and I shouldn't, but I basically take the way they treated those characters' backstories as a personal insult. The continuity is getting worse and worse, everything is inconsistent as hell and will be retconned on a whim. The portrayal of magic is inconsistent and boring and doesn't feel like proper MtG magic anymore, the short story format doesn't have enough space, the new planes feel too small and we don't spend enough time there to explore them, the general storyline is just awful, the cool old characters are dead, the cool new characters hardly show up because the Gatewatch takes all the focus, Creative is deliberately vague on everything and keeps changing the rules all the time (e.g. they come out ten years after the Mending and say conventional planar portals don't work aymore, now they retconned how the meditation plane and the gorgons' death gaze work, we haven't seen mana burn in the story for ages and don't know if it's still officially a thing, we don't know if planes can still form natural connections after the Mending etc.). Everything either relies on handwaving, retcons or ridiculous coincidences (or ridiculous coincidences that may not be coincidences but Bolas's master plan No. 2756383 that never goes anywhere). There's a lack of satisfying resolutions, because stuff either drags on forever, is forgotten about, gets retconned halfway through, is highjacked by the Gatewatch stepping in and taking over the story arc or they just change directions behind the scenes and don't stick to any plan. We have been following Liliana's demon/Chain Veil/Raven Man arc for about ten years, and she still isn't done with any of that stuff. And that's actually one of the very few arcs I'm still interested in, even though I hate that they reconned Bolas into this. We were also promised that blocks/sets would feel more connected now, storywise, but I'd argue they feel as random and unconnected as ever. Just because we see the same faces everywhere every time forever doesn't mean planes are more connected. Most of the time the transition to the next plane is either completely random and contrived (Kaladesh), possibly part of another one of Bolas's schemes but it's too vague to say (Amonkhet), and again either a ridiculous coincidence or a random masterplan (Jace bumping into Vraska on Ixalan). Then it's all about marketing first, so everything has to have a 'core identity' and can't just be what it is, which is also why we're stuck with the Gatewatch and why Bolas didn't kill any of them in HOU. And apparently it's also why we couldn't have any Dominaria in all those years. Which, in my opinion, is complete BS and a huge mistake. It's bad enough that we can't have cool planes like Ulgrotha or Kamigawa again, but Dominaria IS Magic. Not using it is idiotic, it's the only plane that's actually a proper plane. I made a thread about returning to Dominaria more than a year before Dominaria was even announced, and even then I said the most important thing is that they make it a double block (that was still under the two set paradigm). I'm just super starved for Dominaria, it's basically the only thing that's left that I still care about.

Rant over. :tired:

astarael7 wrote:
There is still the possibility that the one Dominaria set is very good and plays very well (probably in the style of Tevish Szat's moment-in-time snapshot---really clever insight, by the way). Can we at least wait to see an actual card before we declare the set DOA?
Sure, but I'd argue it's possible it might suceed at being a good set but fail as an overall return to Dominaria.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:57 pm 
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I didn't want to create a new thread or necro a really old one, but I think this fits here quite nicely. DailyMtG linked to an article by Jay from MtG Sally today that speculates about the identity of the Raven Man:

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/articles/49 ... =hootsuite


Long story short, he too comes to the conclusion that Lim-Dûl is the most likely candidate. I think we've already figured out the broad strokes of this theory, but he makes a few cool connections that I hadn't really thought about. If it turns out to be correct, then I guess it'll either be revealed on Dominaria next year, or if it isn't, at least we'll know what hints to look for.

So, thoughts?

Personally, I've been wanting it to be the case for a while, but some of the more subtle things uncovered in the article make me think it could actually be true. The only flaw I can see in it so far is that I'd expect Liliana's ascension to have purged Lim-Dûl's spirit from her mind/soul, just like it happened with Jaya. Then again, the fact that Liliana wasn't focusing on him could have enabled him to endure, or maybe the experience he gathered on Shandalar or whatever power boost he might have got from the Chain Veil simply made him stronger. All things considered, I think the pieces are coming together in such a brilliant way that any other explanation for the Raven Man's identity would be disappointing, especially after all the time that arc has been dragging on. I have a hard time believing that Creative is actually cool enough to pull off even half of it, though, especially considering the amount of continuity keeping and planning ahead it would require. I feel like they certainly owe us an explanation for what happened to Shandalar's Great Barrier (and thus Lim-Dûl's spirit) for instance, but I just don't think they're prepared to go into any of that stuff and actually build a huge resolution like the mystery of the Raven Man on now obscure pre-Mending (and partly pre-revisionist even!) material. They didn't even care about half the stuff that has happened post-Mending so far to keep it straight, and they're on a course to drive away the people with the biggest investment in the storyline, so why would they bother to bring up ol' Dim Bulb again?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:47 pm 
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It was an excellent read. I'm slightly skeptical about some of the connections to the old computer game (just because I'm skeptical about the canonicity of the game as a whole anyway), but the rest is very solid, tight reasoning.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:49 pm 
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astarael7 wrote:
It was an excellent read. I'm slightly skeptical about some of the connections to the old computer game (just because I'm skeptical about the canonicity of the game as a whole anyway), but the rest is very solid, tight reasoning.
The beauty of it is that they could totally embrace the stuff from the computer game if they wanted to. I'd say they were forced to look into it anyway when they decided to use Shandalar again in the story and the Core Sets, and Eloren Wilds is a reference to the game for what it's worth ('Eloren' appears in the names of randomly generated locations in the game). The game also serves as a continuation of the story in the comics, and the basic premise of the comics at least is validated in The Shattered Alliance. Besides, the game established several prominent tidbits about Shandalar (most notably the Great Barrier and the five guilds) that people have come to associate with the plane, so I'd be really pissed if they just ignored all that. When in doubt, we should always assume stuff is (mostly) canon.

Oh, and I have another relatively recent meta-hint at Lim-Dul that the article didn't mention. I'll just remind everybody how irrationally happy I was about Accursed Witch//Infectious Curse because it's basically the curse Leshrac put on Lim-Dul. It's subtle, but if they're planning to reveal the Raven Man as Lim-Dul, it was probably intentional. Still, I believe it would be too good to be true until I see it.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:47 pm 
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Hasnt Tevish been speculated as such for a while already?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:19 pm 
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I'll be honest, I'm not fond of the Lim-dul theory.
I think it's a contrivance that really stretches things too hard. I also can't help but feel that it further casts Liliana into a weaker role simply because we've been through this sort of scenario before already.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:34 am 
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LilyStorm wrote:
Hasnt Tevish been speculated as such for a while already?
He has, and I first heard that theory from Tevish, so it might have been his idea originally. The theory has been pretty popular for a while, and once someone points it out, the broad strokes are pretty easy to see. But after reading this article, I'm convinced for the first time that there might be something to it actually.

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I also can't help but feel that it further casts Liliana into a weaker role simply because we've been through this sort of scenario before already.
Would it really be any worse in that regard if the Raven Man was Lim-Dûl, though? Being manipulated and entangled in debts is Liliana's thing after all. She's at the centre of an ancient masterplan that she can't see through as it is, and the onakke see nothing but a "vessel" in her already.

I think the main reason why I want this theory to be true is that it stands for everything that I want Magic's storyline to be. I want Magic to be a property in which old or 'obscure' (however you define that) lore isn't simply discarded or forgotten about but could always become relevant again if Creative finds the right place for it. I want it to be a property that never forgets where it came fom and that proudly embraces its past rather than treating it as unnecessary baggage. I want it to be a property in which continuity matters, even over really long periods of time, a property that's capable of planning ahead for more than two years and then sticking to that general plan no matter what (at least if the plan is as cool as bringing back Lim-Dûl). I want it to be a property in which dangling plot threads and open endings can get the epic and meaningful resolution they deserve, even if it takes twenty years (I'm looking at you, Baron Sengir). I want it to be a property in which 'old' and 'new' lore (again, however you define that) aren't strictly divided, and in which arcs that take as long as Liliana's are worth following until the very end. I want it to be a property that rewards being invested in the storyline, and the stronger the investment, the bigger the reward. Heck, most of the time I'd already be happy if it didn't punish people for being invested, and I think at least that isn't asking too much.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:50 pm 
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I do think it's worse than just the Raven Man because it strips focus from Liliana. It goes from being Liliana's story to just being more of what was going on with Lim-dul.
Consider this, you're really upset that Bolas was involved in her deals. It stole agency from Liliana by pulling focus from her. If the Raven Man turns out to be an existing character, it does the same thing because it makes Liliana less relevant in her own story.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:16 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
I do think it's worse than just the Raven Man because it strips focus from Liliana. It goes from being Liliana's story to just being more of what was going on with Lim-dul.
Consider this, you're really upset that Bolas was involved in her deals. It stole agency from Liliana by pulling focus from her. If the Raven Man turns out to be an existing character, it does the same thing because it makes Liliana less relevant in her own story.
I see your point, it probably would take some focus away from Liliana, at least initially. I mean, part of the reason why I'm upset about Bolas brokering her deals is that it was just another unnecessary retcon, but it was particularly bad for the reasons you state. It turned it from something Liliana did as a result of her own agency and familiarity with dark powers into the umpteenth Bolas sub-scheme I don't care about.

On the other hand, I don't think I'll care much about the Raven Man's mysterious identity when it's going to be revealed after 10+ years and it's just some random new character. It just wouldn't be much of a reveal after all that time. Him being Lim-Dul would be the sucker punch that hits you in the crotch and makes you feel glad you didn't give up on the storyline before the Raven Man arc was wrapped up. I think it could work without taking too much focus away from Liliana if it's done right. There are always many characters that co-exist in the story, and if Liliana fights back and maybe ends up defeating him, I don't think it would harm her in the long run. That might actually be the crucial difference between Bolas and the Raven Man; they used Bolas in a way that stole agency from her by taking care of something she could have handled on her own, but Lim-Dul might give her a worthy opponent she can fight and defeat.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:28 pm 
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I've come to feel a.certain amount of conflict over what we can expect from the block, solely on the fact that, while it's a history block, it will still have to push forward the stories we're currently mired in.
It's one specific aspect that has me pensive regarding that: Walkers.

Chiefly, as I consider things, this is one place to pull Karn back into the spotlight, but with everything left as it is post-Amonkhet...
As stated, I'm pensive.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:31 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
It's one specific aspect that has me pensive regarding that: Walkers.

Barinellos may be right. The Walkers might be coming back.

:paranoid:

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:39 pm 
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New Phyrexian Walker

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:42 am 
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Bet $5 explore is in this set, too. Seems like too perfect a fit.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:48 am 
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I'd bet against. MaRo was explaining to people on Tumblr the other day who wanted to know why Explore wasn't in Ixalan. He said that the confusion caused by Explore (the card) and Explore (the mechanic) being in the same block and not doing the same thing wasn’t worth the confusion it would cause to newer players. I understand that the card and the mechanic actually sort of synergize well with each other, as, if you reveal a land, there is a good chance you can play it as your bonus land-drop for the turn off of Explore, but I highly doubt that they will bother to make this be a thing as long as the Explore mechanic is in Standard. The synergy just won’t win out when weighed against the confusion.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:52 am 
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Oh, I meant the mechanic. Wasn't even thinking about the card.

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