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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 2:48 pm 
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Zerris wrote:

PT was on point with the variations of Vessel/Grapple/Gather filtering and selection. Works quite well here too with the Oath. Really enjoyed the deck. Lots of subtle synergies all over.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 2:54 pm 
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oh SHUT UP ELK

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:13 pm 
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Haven_pt wrote:
So if you have a better build, please share!


And open himself up to the same type of criticism he likes to chuck at others who share builds here? How dare you suggest such a thing!? You just need to accept that other brewers can't put together a competent deck unless they're mythic.decks, while his own creative builds that he doesn't make public are power level 9000.


I don't mind people criticizing my decks at all. I try to have an open mind and really listen to suggestions people go to the trouble of making. I really appreciate it too, even if all they say is its utter jank.
For them to say that, its because it probably is. And I usually know it too. Normally I wouldn't post utter jank unless I needed help making it good.
If its consensual that its jank, then I should just move on anyway.
But, I am a firm believer that a Collective effort to improve builds is consistently superior to solo builds, just because they are the result of more acumulated experience and inspiration. Buy thats just me...

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:47 pm 
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Haven_pt wrote:
Haven_pt wrote:
So if you have a better build, please share!


And open himself up to the same type of criticism he likes to chuck at others who share builds here? How dare you suggest such a thing!? You just need to accept that other brewers can't put together a competent deck unless they're mythic.decks, while his own creative builds that he doesn't make public are power level 9000.


I don't mind people criticizing my decks at all. I try to have an open mind and really listen to suggestions people go to the trouble of making. I really appreciate it too, even if all they say is its utter jank.
For them to say that, its because it probably is. And I usually know it too. Normally I wouldn't post utter jank unless I needed help making it good.
If its consensual that its jank, then I should just move on anyway.
But, I am a firm believer that a Collective effort to improve builds is consistently superior to solo builds, just because they are the result of more acumulated experience and inspiration. Buy thats just me...


There's a pretty big difference between offering specific criticisms about a deck and tossing out generalized jabs at builders. The former is often constructive, the latter is never useful.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:19 pm 
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Haven_pt wrote:
But, I am a firm believer that a Collective effort to improve builds is consistently superior to solo builds, just because they are the result of more acumulated experience and inspiration. Buy thats just me...


I prefer Collective Defiance. ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:42 pm 
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Haven_pt wrote:
I don't want to hog the spotlight, but I had already built a very similar deck prior the PT. Its posted in the face burn constructed thread. I'll post it here for easy reference and I'll add my card explanations:

Pyro-Alchemy Control

Description
Its burn/draw control with Alchemists and Pyromancer's assault as wincons (plus a few more surprises)

Creature(12)
2x Thing in the Ice (Defense early, big threat. Very easy to flip)
4x Thermo-Alchemist (The Alchemist is a very real threat. Don't let them stick or else... They can also hit walkers which is really useful to keep the away from ultimates and put them in burn range)
1x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy (Jace can really shine in this deck, if he sticks...)
3x Weaver of Lightning (Underused, but great defense and that extra point of damage burn sometimes lacks. Has performed well)
1x Disciple of the Ring (Another wincon and late game board control bomb. Also a nasty combo with Alchemists... Every instant/sorcery in your GY is a point of damage for 1 mana)
1x Bedlam Reveler ( Just crazy card advantage. Always dropped for RR, I've even bounced him just to get more cards.)

Instant(12)
4x Galvanic Bombardment (The main weapon to take out early threats. Is very good, especially with a weaver on the board)
3x Telling Time (Dig, dig, dig... and ping, ping, ping)
1x Kozilek's Return (The fact its an instant is really good. Everyone except little Jace survives it...)
1x Geistblast (A little extra burn and a surprise later on for the kill or some extra big draw)
3x Fiery Temper (No discard except little Jace's looting, so its basically instant 3 damage. Not taking full advantage, but adding discard would have to alter the entire deck)

Sorcery(10)
4x Take Inventory (This is so great at restocking your hand. This deck goes long, so this card can really shine from second cast on...)
2x Drag Under (Testing this card. Has been ok so far. If opponent has no good targets, can always bounce reveler for great card advantage. Its bounce and draw...timewalk style in the right circumstances. shame its a sorcery)
2x Exquisite Firecraft (the big burn spell. No explanations really needed)
2x Collective Defiance (Just love this card. Still haven't needed to cycle my hand though...)

Enchantment(2)
2x Pyromancer's Assault (Such a Johnny card and so powerful with all the draw. Just hope it doesn't clutter your hand too early on, its much better later)

Planeswalker(1)
1x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets (Jace is fuel for the draw machine. Bounce is useful too)

Land(23)
2x Wandering Fumarole
7x Island
10x Mountain
2x Highland Lake
2x Sulfur Falls

It isn't a finished build by all means and some cards were included to try them out, but it has performed ok so far.
Just wanted to add my input on this archtype and get some feedback/ideas.


I put that together to see what it was doing, and I have a couple of thoughts...

first deck I faced was actually another Pyro-Alchemist deck! all red, though. It used Insolent Neonate to hit for a few with Menace, and then hand-fix. It might be an interesting madness outlet.

I put in Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh in place of one Weaver of Lightning, seemed like a good upgrade.

I resisted the temptation to put in Molten Vortex because it's only 23 land. Might be something to keep in mind for later. but also because...

Blighted Gorge! Why can I not convince people to throw this in? You have a 2-color deck with little mana problems. Surely you can spare 2 land for 2 copies of this to finish off something if the drawing runs dry.


Edit to add a huge tangent....
You know, this is exactly the type of deck vulnerable to a light-creature heavy-control deck, like I was asking in this thread over here, viewtopic.php?f=38&t=15648 (and by all means, feel free to reply over there if it's derailing the deck's intent too far into a whole rebuild.)
You only have 12 creatures, so they have enough control to shut all of them down rather easily. Even if you get a Thermo out, it will get burned shortly.
If they have no creatures, Weaver of Lightning becomes an extremely weak threat. If they leave their defense open you respond with all of 1 power for 3 mana. It's a very defensive creature, so what do you do if the opposing deck has little offense? There should be a way to exploit their lack of defense, right?
Galvanic Bombardment is rather useless against passive decks. As is Koz Return. Collective Defiance doesn't live up to its potential of doing 7 damage split up, it's actually weaker than Firecraft when shot only at the opponent. Drag Under I guess could hit your own creature for a card draw and some Thermo usage. but that feels like a lot of the deck you can't fully use, especially with so much else of the deck designed to dig to get those cards.
In general, what I'm saying is the deck has a lot of unused potential against that type of opponent. And thus is weaker than the control deck that dictates the tempo.
So how do you build around that? What can you do to take advantage of an opponent who plays little creatures into your removal?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:50 pm 
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An alternative take on the Vessel + Grapple synergy:

Long ago, when I was a young Timmy, I dreamt a dream of Angels come to save us all, a heavenly flight...


On Alabaster Wings

Creatures
3x Gnarlwood Dryad
1x Felidar Cub
2x Sylvan Advocate
1x Gisela, the Broken Blade/Brisela, Voice of Nightmares
1x Archangel Avacyn/Avacyn, the Purifier
1x Ishkanah, Grafwidow
1x Linvala, the Preserver
1x Greenwarden of Murasa
1x Ulvenwald Hydra
2x Emeria Shepherd
2x Bruna, the Fading Light/Brisela, Voice of Nightmares
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

Selection/Ramp
3x Vessel of Nascency
4x Grapple with the Past
1x Pulse of Murasa
4x Nissa's Pilgrimage
2x Explosive Vegetation

Removal
2x [Esc ] Blessed Alliance
2x Planar Outburst

Lands (25)
9x Forest
8x Plains
4x Evolving Wilds
2x Canopy Vista
2x Blighted Steppe


The goal, in case it's not obvious, is to get up to some extreme recursion with Emeria Shepherd and Bruna, the Fading Light. Each can return the other, as well as many of the other creatures in the deck. If you get Emeria Shepherd into play with an Evolving Wilds up, your entire graveyard can join the battlefield at instant speed. Including, for example, sacrifice Evolving Wilds for Plains, return Ulvenwald Hydra, search up a Canopy Vista, return Archangel Avacyn, everything has indestructible. Sounds like a fun combat trick. You can also just win on easy mode by assembling Brisela, Voice of Nightmares or Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. The rest of the deck is tutor engines and cheap early creatures to keep you from dying. Bruna into Emeria, landfall into Greenwarden gives you access to a wrath when you need it. Felidar Cub is the better enchantment remover because it's cheaper, they can't exile it before it can sacrifice itself, and it can come back multiple times in a turn with Emeria Shepherd and Grapple with the Past. If you're low on life, just chain Greenwarden of Murasa into Pulse of Murasa (a loop until they can exile it) or Grapple with the Past into Blighted Steppe. Nissa's Pilgrimage helps get all those dead draw Forests out of the deck, and everything else is a Plains for Emeria.

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Last edited by Zerris on Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:59 pm 
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That's super sexy. Will be trying tomorrow for sure.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:41 pm 
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So after reading this thread I've been testing a G/B delirium build all day, with stellar results. I'm only in the mid-twenties still, and played plenty of jank, but the deck felt really strong and I don't believe I've lost one yet. What I really like about it is how almost all the cards feel really powerful regardless of cost. Even Gnarlwood Dryad and Deathcap Cultivator pull more than their weight at their respective CMCs, and to my surprise the grindiness of running Grapple with the Past plus Ever After has even Dimir and Esper control coming up short. Meanwhile, Ishkanah has been an allstar against all manners of aggro, and Sylvan Advocate, Tireless Tracker, and the planeswalkers are their usual overperforming selves. In fact all my creatures are so powerful for so cheap that I feel absolutely no need for the high end beaters that I usually have trouble resisting putting in when playing green; I top out with a single Woodland Bellower.

I really like my list and don't see why I would need to bother with emerge or a third color. I would post it but you guys probably get the idea, plus I haven't tested it at the high ranks yet. But this is way more effective and fun than I was expecting. I even got to kill my last opponent with twenty zombies off of Lily's ultimate after making him sack both his Kalitas and Ormendahl to Fleshbags in the same turn...


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:55 am 
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Haven_pt wrote:
I don't want to hog the spotlight, but I had already built a very similar deck prior the PT. Its posted in the face burn constructed thread. I'll post it here for easy reference and I'll add my card explanations:

Pyro-Alchemy Control

Description
Its burn/draw control with Alchemists and Pyromancer's assault as wincons (plus a few more surprises)

Creature(12)
2x Thing in the Ice (Defense early, big threat. Very easy to flip)
4x Thermo-Alchemist (The Alchemist is a very real threat. Don't let them stick or else... They can also hit walkers which is really useful to keep the away from ultimates and put them in burn range)
1x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy (Jace can really shine in this deck, if he sticks...)
3x Weaver of Lightning (Underused, but great defense and that extra point of damage burn sometimes lacks. Has performed well)
1x Disciple of the Ring (Another wincon and late game board control bomb. Also a nasty combo with Alchemists... Every instant/sorcery in your GY is a point of damage for 1 mana)
1x Bedlam Reveler ( Just crazy card advantage. Always dropped for RR, I've even bounced him just to get more cards.)

Instant(12)
4x Galvanic Bombardment (The main weapon to take out early threats. Is very good, especially with a weaver on the board)
3x Telling Time (Dig, dig, dig... and ping, ping, ping)
1x Kozilek's Return (The fact its an instant is really good. Everyone except little Jace survives it...)
1x Geistblast (A little extra burn and a surprise later on for the kill or some extra big draw)
3x Fiery Temper (No discard except little Jace's looting, so its basically instant 3 damage. Not taking full advantage, but adding discard would have to alter the entire deck)

Sorcery(10)
4x Take Inventory (This is so great at restocking your hand. This deck goes long, so this card can really shine from second cast on...)
2x Drag Under (Testing this card. Has been ok so far. If opponent has no good targets, can always bounce reveler for great card advantage. Its bounce and draw...timewalk style in the right circumstances. shame its a sorcery)
2x Exquisite Firecraft (the big burn spell. No explanations really needed)
2x Collective Defiance (Just love this card. Still haven't needed to cycle my hand though...)

Enchantment(2)
2x Pyromancer's Assault (Such a Johnny card and so powerful with all the draw. Just hope it doesn't clutter your hand too early on, its much better later)

Planeswalker(1)
1x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets (Jace is fuel for the draw machine. Bounce is useful too)

Land(23)
2x Wandering Fumarole
7x Island
10x Mountain
2x Highland Lake
2x Sulfur Falls

It isn't a finished build by all means and some cards were included to try them out, but it has performed ok so far.
Just wanted to add my input on this archtype and get some feedback/ideas.


I put that together to see what it was doing, and I have a couple of thoughts...

first deck I faced was actually another Pyro-Alchemist deck! all red, though. It used Insolent Neonate to hit for a few with Menace, and then hand-fix. It might be an interesting madness outlet.

I put in Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh in place of one Weaver of Lightning, seemed like a good upgrade.

I resisted the temptation to put in Molten Vortex because it's only 23 land. Might be something to keep in mind for later. but also because...

Blighted Gorge! Why can I not convince people to throw this in? You have a 2-color deck with little mana problems. Surely you can spare 2 land for 2 copies of this to finish off something if the drawing runs dry.


Edit to add a huge tangent....
You know, this is exactly the type of deck vulnerable to a light-creature heavy-control deck, like I was asking in this thread over here, viewtopic.php?f=38&t=15648 (and by all means, feel free to reply over there if it's derailing the deck's intent too far into a whole rebuild.)
You only have 12 creatures, so they have enough control to shut all of them down rather easily. Even if you get a Thermo out, it will get burned shortly.
If they have no creatures, Weaver of Lightning becomes an extremely weak threat. If they leave their defense open you respond with all of 1 power for 3 mana. It's a very defensive creature, so what do you do if the opposing deck has little offense? There should be a way to exploit their lack of defense, right?
Galvanic Bombardment is rather useless against passive decks. As is Koz Return. Collective Defiance doesn't live up to its potential of doing 7 damage split up, it's actually weaker than Firecraft when shot only at the opponent. Drag Under I guess could hit your own creature for a card draw and some Thermo usage. but that feels like a lot of the deck you can't fully use, especially with so much else of the deck designed to dig to get those cards.
In general, what I'm saying is the deck has a lot of unused potential against that type of opponent. And thus is weaker than the control deck that dictates the tempo.
So how do you build around that? What can you do to take advantage of an opponent who plays little creatures into your removal?


That's totally valid input.
My original idea was to go as near to creatureless as possible. I was thinking counter-alchemist, counter a spell, Ping for damage would just be cruel. But as I put the deck together, I found a bunch of cards I thought were reasonable enough to try out. So the counters got left out, at least in this build. But, I face a lot of aggro when I play randoms, so I didn't want the deck to just curl up and die.
So yes, there are cards that are really only useful against creature decks and useless against creatureless, but thats inevitable (pun kind of intended ;)), because the best anti-creature cards all become worthless with no creatures. Theoretically, all instants and sorceries can do 1 extra damage with an alchemist, even if you have to target your own guys (which I have done in Fact). And they can always help for the 2 spell per turn Pyromancer's Assault damage.

But cards like Disciple of the Ring should make creatureless strategies have a hard time. Any other suggestions? I could just remove a bunch of cards and add a sh@t load of counters and just pray the burn is enough to stem aggro. It could work... That would be a deck that creatureless Mill would hate.

I had actually totally forgotten blighted gorge, it underperformed so much back when I tested it that it was completely off my radar. I guess it could work in this deck, worth try at least.
Molten worked however doesn't look like a good fit. Sure a couple of points of damage could make a difference now and then, but I generally prefer to have those lands in play. If I was running Scour the Laboratory and wanted delirium... Hmm maybe... Add 2/3 more land... Could work.
Chandra I just forgot. She pings too, so she fits pretty well.

Neonates... Sounds like my burness deck. Thats a different version of the same theme/archtype. That one is more aggressive, this one is more controlish.

What direction would you take the deck?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:52 am 
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Haven_pt wrote:

And open himself up to the same type of criticism he likes to chuck at others who share builds here? How dare you suggest such a thing!? You just need to accept that other brewers can't put together a competent deck unless they're mythic.decks, while his own creative builds that he doesn't make public are power level 9000.


I don't mind people criticizing my decks at all. I try to have an open mind and really listen to suggestions people go to the trouble of making. I really appreciate it too, even if all they say is its utter jank.
For them to say that, its because it probably is. And I usually know it too. Normally I wouldn't post utter jank unless I needed help making it good.
If its consensual that its jank, then I should just move on anyway.
But, I am a firm believer that a Collective effort to improve builds is consistently superior to solo builds, just because they are the result of more acumulated experience and inspiration. Buy thats just me...


There's a pretty big difference between offering specific criticisms about a deck and tossing out generalized jabs at builders. The former is often constructive, the latter is never useful.


If you think I do the latter then you're obviously caught up in your feelings and/or have abysmal levels of reading comprehension.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:15 am 
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oh SHUT UP ELK
Fantastic!! Signature updated!


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:08 am 
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If you think I do the latter then you're obviously caught up in your feelings and/or have abysmal levels of reading comprehension.


Yes, well it's very telling that you made this post rather than answer Haven's sincere request to share builds on the clue take. Not sure how you think you can claim you don't do the latter when you literally just did it a page ago.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:16 am 
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i feel like baby chandra can actually be a bit too slow in this deck with alchemists and stormchasers. she requires a turn off of pinging/pumping and is usually better late game than early. imo play priority goes Stormchaser > Thermo-Alchemist > Chandra

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:47 am 
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is there some method to automate the casting cost in the decklist? I mean I know how to write mana symbols in posts, but are you generating it from somewhere with the symbols included?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:13 am 
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jedc22 wrote:
i feel like baby chandra can actually be a bit too slow in this deck with alchemists and stormchasers. she requires a turn off of pinging/pumping and is usually better late game than early. imo play priority goes Stormchaser > Thermo-Alchemist > Chandra


You can always give her haste with Hanweir Battlements. I did that just to Ping my opponent, because I suspected he had a Blessed alliance (no other creatures on the board. As it turned out, he did). :)
Still, if and when Chandra sticks, it gets nasty for your opponent.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:58 am 
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so on that Angel deck, you don't even have a swamp to fire off Ishkanah's ability?
what about replacing her with an Eldritch Evolution? Double the chance of getting Gisela out of the deck.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:02 am 
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so on that Angel deck, you don't even have a swamp to fire off Ishkanah's ability?
what about replacing her with an Eldritch Evolution? Double the chance of getting Gisela out of the deck.


Ishkanahs activated ability is not the main reason to include her - 6/11 Reach is.

That line is like - Hey you don't run any man-lands, what's that Sylvan Advocate for?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:11 am 
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guess you could run deathcap cultivator, gives you access to black and ramps at the same time.
also you can get him back with bruna, the ultimate synergy!

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:18 am 
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Modulo wrote:
so on that Angel deck, you don't even have a swamp to fire off Ishkanah's ability?
what about replacing her with an Eldritch Evolution? Double the chance of getting Gisela out of the deck.


Ishkanahs activated ability is not the main reason to include her - 6/11 Reach is.

That line is like - Hey you don't run any man-lands, what's that Sylvan Advocate for?


Not at all what I'm saying.
This deck has 4 Wilds and 2 Explosive. Why NOT fit one swamp among the lands in case you do want to use her ability?

is there something else that could give way to an Evolution? She just seemed like the weakest link, since there's no support to turn her tokens into a threat.


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