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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 1:07 pm 
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This was designed as a Common combat trick, but the gameplay might be a little bit complex. What say you?

Fitting Punishment
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All damage target creature would deal this turn is dealt to itself instead.


(I'm surprised this spell hasn't already been made, actually...)


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 1:32 pm 
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It's almost a white Kiku's Shadow, but instant speed does allow it to make a pump spell useless. A good variant overall.

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 6:17 pm 
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YingLung wrote:
It's almost a white Kiku's Shadow, but instant speed does allow it to make a pump spell useless. A good variant overall.

also lets it kill large back-end creatures in combat without 2-for-1ing.

:duel:

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 6:44 pm 
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Is it important that the creature doesn't simply deal damage to itself equal to its power?


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 6:48 pm 
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It makes it white because it acts as an extension of "destroy target attacking or blocking creature".

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 7:01 pm 
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Then make it target attacking or blocking creatures only...?


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 7:11 pm 
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Azhorium wrote:
Then make it target attacking or blocking creatures only...?

why?

:duel:

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 7:13 pm 
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To circumvent what Dr_Demento perceives as a meaningful difference between the original design and my proposed simplification. The difference is significant of course, I just don't know if it's meaninful for the role Fallingman wants it to perform in his set.


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 7:19 pm 
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Azhorium wrote:
To circumvent what Dr_Demento perceives as a meaningful difference between the original design and my proposed simplification. The difference is significant of course, I just don't know if it's meaninful for the role Fallingman wants it to perform in his set.

your version also doesn't prevent damage. it also interacts differently with pingers and other sources of non-combat damage. why use the Kiku wording when this one is just as clean, more clearly white, and plays differently? what advantage does your wording have?

:duel:

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 7:28 pm 
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That's actually perfectly in white based upon redirection precedents.

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 7:34 pm 
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razorborne wrote:
Azhorium wrote:
To circumvent what Dr_Demento perceives as a meaningful difference between the original design and my proposed simplification. The difference is significant of course, I just don't know if it's meaninful for the role Fallingman wants it to perform in his set.

your version also doesn't prevent damage. it also interacts differently with pingers and other sources of non-combat damage. why use the Kiku wording when this one is just as clean, more clearly white, and plays differently? what advantage does your wording have?

:duel:

I absolutely understand they play slightly differently, which is exactly why I asked in the first post if not opting for the simpler version was important. The advantage is complexity; remember this is a common card.


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 7:53 pm 
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Azhorium wrote:
Is it important that the creature doesn't simply deal damage to itself equal to its power?


Only the fact that it would be a functionally different card? Turning it into a power-based damage spell creates fewer complicated game scenarios, but I don't know if it's "simpler" in the sense I'm looking for.

All that's important for this Common slot is that it gives White some fairly flexible creature removal. But if damage redirection is too complex for Common rarity, then I'm not going to try to replicate the effect with a less-complex-but-significantly-less-elegant wording. I'm just going to move Fitting Punishment to an Uncommon slot, and fill the Common slot with something more appropriate.


Last edited by Fallingman on Wed May 06, 2015 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 7:56 pm 
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My precise point was if the functional difference was important to you. As in, having it affect noncombat damage was relevant to the environment it's supposed to be played in.

I think increasing rarity is appropriate and a good solution.


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 7:57 pm 
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Also affecting noncombat is also consistent with white redirects. Agreed that it should not be a common.

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 8:06 pm 
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it's not a very frequent effect as far as I can tell. carom is the last time it was printed at common, but then only harm's way has been printed anywhere since. although I may have missed something, it's hard to find good search terms for it. anyway I think it's fine at common if you want because it's more limited than those examples and amounts to neck snap most of the time.

:duel:

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The BLOCK I'm currently pretending I'll finish: Fleets Of Ossia (complete!) | Wavebreak (complete!) | The Second Flood (in progress!)
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 8:51 pm 
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Kor Chant was common in Conspiracy, but is uncommon now in Tempest Remastered, so what do we make of it? Uncommon has a fair share though, some of which are in recent sets: Acolyte's Reward, Channel Harm, Honorable Passage, Mirror Strike, Refraction Trap. Might have missed some.


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 9:16 pm 
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I think Harm's Way is precedent enough to put this kind of effect at Uncommon. But the ability to redirect damage from any source and deal it to any target you choose is much more complicated in terms of the choices you get and the potential board state you could gain from it. They're equal in terms of rules comprehension, but the strategic impact of Fitting Punishment is a lot simpler.


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 11:59 pm 
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Common is a bit of a stretch but if the set needs it, do it anyway. Small, occasionally rarity bleeds aren't anything to get upset about. Really it's all about grokkability and the effect is very grokkable. The only possible issue is the wording and if you mess around with that it should work.

Somewhat tangential- Does "Whenever _ would deal damage to anything else..." make any rules sense? Maybe "anything but itself?".

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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 12:44 am 
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"Whenever" signifies a triggered ability, which goes on the stack to resolve after an event happens. If you want to prevent or modify an event while it's actually happening, you need a replacement effect instead. I think just replacing "whenever" with "if" would give you the intuitive wording you want.


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 12:59 am 
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So "anything else" is valid rules speak?

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CotW is a method for ranking cards in increasing order of printability.

*"To YMTC it up" means to design cards that have value mostly from a design perspective. i.e. you would put them in a case under glass in your living room and visitors could remark upon the wonderful design principles, with nobody ever worring if the cards are annoying/pointless/confusing in actual play

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