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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:36 am 
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DJ0045 wrote:
I like the look of this deck and it looks like monomania might actually have a place in here. That makes me have to test it. Normally I wouldn't consider armillary sphere in a deck, but this deck has very little going on early and needs to get double black by turn 3 or 4, so I guess it has a place in this deck. Nice work DJ.

Just an aside I used to love playing your 2 headed dragon team decklists in the last dotp. Hands down the best ones I would find were yours.


I should have mentioned: the whole point of this deck was to make monomania into a good card. The deck may still need some work btw, but I was enjoying playing it. It's very controlish.

As for armillary sphere, it's okay in decks that have extreme mana requirements. I put it in, because the thing I hate most in mtg is not being able to play my hand. However, in any deck of mine where you see a colorless mana option, you can always remove and replace. The mana basses are typically balanced correctly, even without it. You will have a slightly less consistent deck, but you will also have a place for 1-4 additional cheap cards.

Also, thanks!



Armillary Sphere is a card I feel doesn't get the respect it deserves. Most people just see it as a worse Cultivate. To a certain extent, it is, but it also has its own advantages that Cultivate does not provide.

Cultivate is certainly better in that it costs a total of :1: less mana to cast, and also in that is puts that second land directly into play.

Armillary Sphere, on the other hand, doesn't require you to be running :g: to get a decent land fetch effect. The biggest benefit of Armillary Sphere though, at least in my opinion, is the fact that it is an activated permanent. Meaning that once Sphere hits the table, cracking it is done at instant speed.

This is the real advantage of the card as far as I am concerned. Armillary Sphere gives a deck the ability to mana fix, as well as help to consistently hit land drops, without requiring the deck to tap out to do so. This is obviously more important in certain decks, most obviously for ones that are looking to operate at the End Step the majority of the time. For example, in the majority of Control decks I would choose Armillary Sphere over Cultivate (even if I was running :g: to run/cast Cultivate) if I was looking for a fixing/land fetch option. This is because I can play an Armillary Sphere on T2 for example, and still be able to keep mana up on T3/T4/whatever to be able to cast removal/countermagic etc. You can save cracking that Armillary Sphere until your opponents End Step on a turn where you know you can afford to do so.

Much in the same way that a lot of decks use draw spells. Think Twice is a good example of this. You keep mana open on your opponents turn, if they play something worth removing/countering/etc then we do so at the End Step and immediately untap on our turn. If they don't play anything worth removing/countering/etc then we have Think Twice to use at that End Step instead to draw us a card and then immediately untap on our turn.

Armillary Sphere functions much the same way in those sorts of decks, allowing you to run mana fixing/fetch without having to tap out to do so. If the opponent plays something worth removing/countering/etc then we do that on their End Step and immediately untap. If they don't play anything worthwhile, then we crack Armillary Sphere and fetch up 2 lands and immediately untap.

Sorry, I know I went a bit on a tangent, but I feel like this is a card that by and large gets ignored completely due to the existence of Cultivate, which I can understand to an extent, but I don't believe is completely and totally warranted.


On the same page here. I use it in a lot of builds. Also, if you are stuck at two mana, armillary sphere saves you, cultivate gathers dust.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:34 pm 
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Hi -
Would like to share a deck (premium) for the Blue/Black theme that I've been rockin' out. Really leaves the other player floored. Cards such as Inspiration, Roil Elemental, and Sheoldred, Whispering One I've swapped out for other cards such as Switcheroo, Griselbrand, and Counterlash.

The strategy is staling the player out with kick backs, discarding, and sacrifices. Prefer to draw Brain Maggot in the opening hand to see the other player's hand and strategizing how to discard and negate/nullify what is to come.

Also, see DJ0045 rockin' out a Mind Rot type deck. Cool construction !


[manapie 90 -w u b -r -g][/manapie]

Don't Mind Me

A deck for Magic 2015.

60 Cards (13 :creature: , 24 :instant: , 23 :land:)

Multicolored2 cards
■■
Dinrova Horror4/4
Color 17 cards
■■■■
Vapor Snag
■■■
Negate
■■■
Nullify
■■■
Dissolve
■■■■
Inspiration
■■
Roil Elemental3/2
Color 15 cards
■■■
Brain Maggot1/1
■■■
Liliana's Specter2/1
■■■
Mind Rot
■■■
Tribute to Hunger
■■
Indulgent Tormentor5/3
Sheoldred, Whispering One6/6
Colorless26 cards
■■■
Traveler's Amulet
■■■
Arcane Sanctum
■■■
Dimir Guildgate
9
Island
8
Swamp


Last edited by C Eliza on Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:01 pm 
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Traveler's Amulet should be Think Twice for sure. You don't need that in a two color deck.

Graveborn Muse should be here.

If you're running discard.. a single Suffer the Past is a good call to disrupt graveyard decks (which are all the rage again) and to have it act as a big fat burn spell which can finish games.

I wouldn't run Roil Elemental if you paid me. The only players it beats are bad players.. good players always have an answer for it. I feel it's a terrible card.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:28 pm 
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I wouldn't play discard in this format too many recursion decks and kozi that can abuse it


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:44 pm 
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I wouldn't play discard in this format too many recursion decks and kozi that can abuse it


Kozi abuses Mill not discard.

I have tried since the beginning of this game to make a strong discard list.. and I've brewed some decent ones.. but ultimately, you end up being creature deficient. Still.. I won't stop trying. I love frustrating opponents.

If you're gonna run discard.. the core package looks like:

3x Brain Maggot
4x Lilianna's Spectre
2 or 3 Mind Rot but I usually go with 2.. bc it's not a card you want multiples of in your hand. It has to be played at very specific times IMO to get value out of it.

Monomania is just pure feces 98% of the time and pure gold 2% of the time. I don't even mess with it anymore.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:59 pm 
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I wouldn't play discard in this format too many recursion decks and kozi that can abuse it


Kozi abuses Mill not discard.

I have tried since the beginning of this game to make a strong discard list.. and I've brewed some decent ones.. but ultimately, you end up being creature deficient. Still.. I won't stop trying. I love frustrating opponents.

If you're gonna run discard.. the core package looks like:

3x Brain Maggot
4x Lilianna's Spectre
2 or 3 Mind Rot but I usually go with 2.. bc it's not a card you want multiples of in your hand. It has to be played at very specific times IMO to get value out of it.

Monomania is just pure feces 98% of the time and pure gold 2% of the time. I don't even mess with it anymore.


Not to toot my own horn, but did you look at mine? I thinks it's actually very good. Check it out, maybe even try it. You'd probably want to put a suffer in somewhere, but I don't think it's weak, and it definitely gives you value out of monomania.

viewtopic.php?p=287194#p287194


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:37 pm 
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My first discard build was pretty close to that.. max out on bounce & discard. Unfortunately you have no early blockers and later in the game your discard/bounce turns into 2 for 1ing yourself just to deal with threats. The wincons are too few also.. and good players will start sandbagging lands against you. But.. ultimately.. the biggest problem is the complete lack of blockers in Dimir colors. For instance.. how does your build answer Raise the Alarm/Krenkos Command? You gonna use two bounce.spells? No.. you're gonna get hit for 2 until you can put a decent blocker out there.. which happens to be what? Indulgent Tormentor? Dinrova? 5-6 drops. I'm not too wild on that plan.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:49 pm 
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Yeah, it's a problem. You have to hope they give you targets to bounce. It's a terrible matchup though. That said, I disagree about the late game. You won't be 2 for 1 ing yourself, unless you're the bad player.

Probably, when faced with agro you're just going to roll over and die. Most of the non spike decks can't compete with the spike decks.

I wish they'd given us even one card that caused damage when opponent discards. Would make a world of difference. Either that, or a way to interact with their yard. Oh well.

Still, the deck can hang. I like it.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:02 pm 
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I just wish Dimir colors had creatures at 1-2 cmc that can attack/block that weren't garbage. When Walking Corpse is the best creature you have access to that can actually mix it up.. you're not in a good place.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:34 pm 
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The thing with the an aggro deck is that it runs pretty stale on turn 3 or 4, so if you can delay the aggro deck enough with Vapor Snag, Voyager's End, Nullify, and/or Negate on the second turn. Then on the third turn Mind Rot, and on the fourth turn again Mind Rot, bounce, or cast Lilian's Specter. Usually, after the fourth turn the ship is under control and it's smooth sailing to victory!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:48 pm 
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Your deck has 4x Vapor Snag.. you can't even make sure you have a bounce spell in your opening hand. Cards like Elite Vanguard are going to punish the hell out of you. Then.. you're going to want to tap out on turn 3 to play discards, now your counterspells are offline.. now an opponent can slip through a Goblin Rabblemaster, Rhox War Monk or some.other.horrid 3 drop. I really think, if you want to play discard, going with removal is a better option than going with counters IMO. Dead Weight, Shadowborn, and a few Flesh to Dust.. and most importantly, creatures that can block. Guard Gomazoa was huge for.me in my discard build.. and so was Phyrexian Rager as they can both block.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:51 pm 
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C Eliza wrote:
The thing with the an aggro deck is that it runs pretty stale on turn 3 or 4, so if you can delay the aggro deck enough with Vapor Snag, Voyager's End, Nullify, and/or Negate on the second turn. Then on the third turn Mind Rot, and on the fourth turn again Mind Rot, bounce, or cast Lilian's Specter. Usually, after the fourth turn the ship is under control and it's smooth sailing to victory!


Agreed, but not against any agro deck either I or mega or any serious player would play. I'd either keep dropping threats, or my build has answers. You put rise from the grave in this meta and everything changes (not even that good), without it or something like it, this deck is just delaying the inevitable, or it's winning by a nose. It can't be dominant, because we lack the tools to make it truly dominant.

He was nice in his assessment, btw, because this deck gets totally hosed by Spider Spwaning, and many of the other similar concepts.

It's still a very good deck, it's not automatic loss against agro, but 2 out of 3 games it would lose, and badly. :-)

Edit: actually I don't agree. T4 is probably GG for some of the better agro decks. Far from a stale turn.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:00 pm 
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I just wish Dimir colors had creatures at 1-2 cmc that can attack/block that weren't garbage. When Walking Corpse is the best creature you have access to that can actually mix it up.. you're not in a good place.


I do think you have a chance so long as maggot is in your oppening hand. That card always hits removal first, but any token generator would be a close second. On the play, you have a chance. Especially if they opt to play on curve, which many - even good - opponents would. It's far from automatic loss, even against raise or krenko. On the draw... Shrug. Go for their removal, and hope you survive.

That said, I'd use bounce on the token. It's your best play. It sucks that it's your best play, but it's still often going to be your best - terribad - play.

The good news with Krenko or Raise is that it's one less card in hand, even if you bounce. The bad is that you WILL take some hits.

Edit: because the deck was questioned, I went online with it. Is this really what you guys deal with? The CPU is much better. At least it plays with decent decks. Edit 2: I was beating people so badly with it, I switched to a lesser deck in order to raise the challenge.


Last edited by DJ0045 on Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:50 am 
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Actually, there are decent early blockers in dimir, mostly in blue.
Maritime Guard, Guard Gomazoa

Black-colored early blockers are a bit crappy indeed, but it gets very potent cards at 3-4 CMC.
Giant Scorpion also is a bit of a pain to deal with
Ogre Jailbreaker is pretty good as a 4/4 in a dimir deck running gates.

Tidehollow Strix sucks against tokens but is pretty good otherwise


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:09 am 
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Has anyone brewed a discard deck beyond Dimir? Maybe in Rakdos to help the early game and trade bounce for burn?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:19 am 
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I did create a discard deck for Esper - though that was mostly just a Dimir deck with the inclusion of Cloudshift to flicker Liliana's Specter and Dinrova Horror as well as a few other choice white cards. Probably not the sort of thing you were looking for though.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:32 am 
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nerdcore9 wrote:
Has anyone brewed a discard deck beyond Dimir? Maybe in Rakdos to help the early game and trade bounce for burn?


You aren't going to fix it with early creatures. And burn is a mistake. You need to maximize/optimize the value of your discard cards. That means every discard has to be at least a 2 for 1 (except dinrova). Tokens present a problem, but burn doesn't solve it either. Mega and I are talking a bit of sh*t, but really, a good discard deck nails good players more than bad. The better the deck, the more optimized the play, the more damage discard will do when merged with bounce.

If their deck plans on dropping a permanent every turn, they are in for a world of hurt. If psychologically, even one time, they think to themselves 'there's no way the opponent has another bounce spell' it's probably GG.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:45 am 
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Quote:
You need to maximize/optimize the value of your discard cards.


To play devil's advocate for a second: what is the ratio between bouncing their creatures to (temporarily) remove threats and maybe push a bit of damage through and bouncing your own to keep the discard going?

If you are bouncing your own creatures you are losing tempo and potential damage. You are not blocking with those creatures either. So early blockers/burn help, right! Or focus on discard not as shutting opponents down completely and just a tempo loss sub-theme?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:12 am 
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nerdcore9 wrote:
Quote:
You need to maximize/optimize the value of your discard cards.


To play devil's advocate for a second: what is the ratio between bouncing their creatures to (temporarily) remove threats and maybe push a bit of damage through and bouncing your own to keep the discard going?

If you are bouncing your own creatures you are losing tempo and potential damage. You are not blocking with those creatures either. So early blockers/burn help, right! Or focus on discard not as shutting opponents down completely and just a tempo loss sub-theme?


No way I'd ever bounce my own creatures. I want their hand full, not mine. I'm not temporarily removing threats, I'm bouncing them, and then forcing them to discard. Even if the threat comes back on the field, I'm gaining tempo, and card advantage every time. Eventually, they are down to one card, one more bounce wipes their hand and probably their board when followed by a mind rot, which is exactly how the deck is intended to play.

I mean, I guess, in a pinch I might consider bouncing dinrova back to my hand, but in 20-30 games worth of testing, it hasn't happened even once. It's not a card advantage play, so you'd better really need it badly.

Edit: quite frankly, I'm surprised you thought the bounce cards were there for my deck's creatures. They aren't, they are there because I want to force my opponent to discard a full hand when I cast monomania (ideally on curve, on turn 5). That's happened roughly 10% of the games I've played in testing. But most of the time monomania has been at least a 3 for 1, which isn't bad for a 5 CMC card. And, of course, that pairs perfectly with Dinrova on the next turn, if the opponent is totally clueless.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:40 pm 
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Quote:
I'm surprised you thought the bounce cards were there for my deck's creatures


I haven't actually looked at your deck list, so it was more of a general question. But I gather now that your primary strategy is card advantage and forcing an empty hand very quickly. Bounce for one or even two mana is better than burn that costs more for bigger creatures. Still, for smaller creatures it would seem burn (shock, dead weight) is better than bounce because your follow-up discard means more, no?


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