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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:49 am 
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A problem arose in Starstill today. Two returning mechanics won the vote: Crystallized Breath for Splice, and Salvage Titan for Colored Artifacts. There has been pushback for each of these mechanics, and anyway, we can't have both, because we have enough mechanics as it is.

Please vote Yay or Nay for Splice, and Yay or Nay for Colored Artifacts.

If Splice gets more Nays than Yays, Crystallized Breath will be modified to lose Splice.

If Colored Artifacts gets more Nays than Yays, Salvage Titan will be modified to be colorless.

If they both get more Yays than Nays, the mechanic with more Yays will be added to the set, and the card with the mechanic with fewer Yays will be modified. If, in this instance, they have the same amount of Yays, Splice will win the tie.

I vote Yay for Splice and Nay for Colored Artifacts.

This vote will be open until Monday night.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:41 am 
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Nay on Splice.
Nay on colored artifacts, but I'd be willing to have a very low number ~5-10. Salvage titan can be done in colorless without problem. I'd want colored artifacts to need their color.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:50 am 
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I don't see the problem with colored artifacts, really.
It's not like they need support. They are just artifacts... with color.

Didn't we also agree that instants/sorceries needed a mechanic to themselves?
If we had to choose one or the other, I'd say give instants/sorceries their mechanic.
Unless someone plans to bring back rebound, which seemed to have some support (but 0 cards!)

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:00 pm 
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I designed Crystallized Breath and I voted for Salvage Titan but I guess I'll vote against both mechanics. Splice and colored artifacts aren't like Bringer or Oblation where we can just unkeyword them, these legit have to be subthemes if we're having them at all (because Salvage Titan isn't color-specific enough that it would make sense as the only colored artifact in the set). If people are discontent we should try something else.

(Splice is way better than rebound, though. So if that's the alternative we're looking at I might reconsider.)

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:38 pm 
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I don't think coloured equipment is a theme in THS block, but there is one of them. I don't see harm in one offs that aren't keywords and don't need reminder text.

That said, if we cannot stand a coloured artifact creature, I would rather Salvage Titan's rework be made black non artifact , rather than nonblack artifact. Black is still (universally and regardless of set theme) the color of sacrifice and of graveyard play (and that was my criteria round and vote that was for a rare black attacking creature). I'll cite Yawgmoth Demon as the sort of retheme I'd like - a demon (or other such big black nonartifact baddie) that consumes artifacts.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:52 pm 
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I agree with you about the redesign.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:57 pm 
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Eater of Dreams
Enchantment Creature – Demon (R)
You may sacrifice three enchantments rather than pay Eater of Dreams's mana cost.
Exile three enchantment cards from your graveyard: Return Eater of Dreams from your graveyard to your hand.

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Last edited by ParadOxymoron on Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:03 pm 
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I vote Yay for Splice and Nay for Colored Artifacts.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:00 pm 
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Nay on Splice.
I don't see what the big deal about colored artifacts are.

Eater of Dreams
Enchantment Creature – Demon
You may sacrifice three enchantments rather than pay Eater of Dreams's mana cost.
Exile three enchantment cards from your graveyard: Return Eater of Dreams from your graveyard to your hand.

Black is completely incapable of removing enchantments, even its own.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:03 pm 
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I vote nay for both.
I wouldn't mind having artifacts with an alternate (colored) method of casting, but I think splice and colored artifacts should be out.
An example could be... an artifact creature with vigilance that you can hardcast, or exile a white card from your hand? Maybe we could bring back alternate casting cost spells... but that's not for here.

Nay for both.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:21 pm 
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Mown wrote:
Black is completely incapable of removing enchantments, even its own.

I know, but I think that's stupid.

Shazzeh wrote:
(Splice is way better than rebound, though. So if that's the alternative we're looking at I might reconsider.)

I'm pretty sure that yes, it is the alternative we're looking at.

I don't see the problem with colored artifacts, really.
It's not like they need support. They are just artifacts... with color.

Didn't we also agree that instants/sorceries needed a mechanic to themselves?
If we had to choose one or the other, I'd say give instants/sorceries their mechanic.
Unless someone plans to bring back rebound, which seemed to have some support (but 0 cards!)

I'm counting this as a Yay for both.

Current Tally:

Splice: 3/4
Colored Artifact: 3/4

I should note here that Nay wins ties. Currently, we're looking at neither getting into the set.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:22 pm 
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I vote nay on Splice.


I don't think the existence of one or two colored artifacts makes it count as a set mechanic. Even the six in THS block didn't really make it a block mechanic. I don't want colored artifacts to be a deliberate set mechanic, but as a nonkeyword ability that doesn't require reminder text I don't think we need to squish Salvage Titan either.

I abstain on Colored Artifacts, because my vote falls between the extremes of 'Make it a deliberate set mechanic' and 'eradicate existing trace of it and ban it from all future card design'.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:48 pm 
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Mown wrote:
Black is completely incapable of removing enchantments, even its own.

Greater Harvester, Infernal Tribute, Undercity Plague, Descent into Madness etc etc

So, what's the problem with splice? is it the mechanic itself that people don't think plays well? Or is it because it's hard to design a comprehensive enough set of splice cards to make it work in limited?

I've never played with splice, but it looks like it's exactly the tool the set needs to make the instant/sorcery deck limited-viable. The problem with spells in limited are twofold: they're one-time effects, and they're standalone effects. Compare with creatures, which deal damage until answered, and can synergize with other cards in your deck. Splice lessens both these problems and lets pure spells take over the role of creatures to some extent.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:34 am 
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Yay for splice.
Nay for coloured artifacts.

Splice addresses some major design concerns and gives instants/sorceries their own identity. Rebound also works, but I feel we need to have something.
Coloured artifacts are not a thing in 90% of sets. People seem to forget that all but one of Theros' coloured artifacts are also enchantments* and that's why they're coloured. This is a set about card types and dualism, and I feel we need to distinguish artifacts and enchantments by keeping one coloured and the other one not.

*Godsend is the oddball and I wonder if it signals a change in R&D's thinking. It baffles and perplexes me.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:43 am 
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I know I'm the one who started this thread, because I wanted everybody's voices heard. But it's my personal opinion that TPzombieW and Steinhauser are both right, and that because of their reasoning, the only thing worse than letting in colored artifacts would be leaving out splice.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:45 am 
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So, what's the problem with splice? is it the mechanic itself that people don't think plays well? Or is it because it's hard to design a comprehensive enough set of splice cards to make it work in limited?

It might be because it's really hard to deal with stuff that's scary even just sitting in your opponent's hand. Only one color has targeted discard, and it's not really very common even there. I think rebound doesn't really help us, though. It's not an exciting and strategy-defining ability like Splice is--you just cast a spell, and something happens twice. We should think of something else.

The thing about coloredness being the difference between enchantments and artifacts is a really good point. In a set that tries to make both matter separately, we should probably avoid blurring that line.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:55 am 
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I'd recommend Forecast, but that has a lot of the same problems as Splice and couldn't go against the flavor of the set more.

Ok, so how about this. I played Yu-Gi-Oh! long before I played Magic, and the Trap cards in Zendikar really didn't compare with the marvelous feeling of playing a Trap card in Yu-Gi-Oh!, because your opponent has to know you're planning something in order for it to be fun, because it makes it that much more satisfying to pull off the Mirror Force when they thought you might have one. Or in Magic terms (Yu-Gi-Oh! doesn't really have as much removal, it's more combat-based), they need a turn to respond. I've been trying to make trap cards (the closest Magic equivalent would be Morph for spells) work in Magic for years. The following could be our Instant/Sorcery mechanic:

Destiny (You may imbue this card face-down on target creature any time you could cast a sorcery. The next time that creature becomes tapped, you may turn this card face up and cast it for its destiny cost.)

Fated Enlightenment
Instant (U)
Draw two cards.
Destiny

Bloodstained Hands
Instant (U)
Destroy target creature.
Destiny

I don't have time to finish the whole cycle to illustrate my point, but you get the idea.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:26 am 
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Mown: black is also incapable of artifact removal, but that didn't stop salvage titan from being printed.*

Parad: we don't need MORE mechanics, and if we did, I can't see why we would need that one.

*yes, I know, there are some REALLY old black artifact removal cards, but the color pie was weird back then.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:35 am 
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We don't need more mechanics but we do probably want a better spells mechanic than rebound. I like Parad's idea, although a reactive mechanic might not be the best way to define a faction's strategy.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:38 am 
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What's wrong with rebound?

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