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 Post subject: Selesnya Angels
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:47 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya Angels
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:11 am 
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Interesting deck, did you play any competitive constructed yet, and if so how does it fare?

If the Immortal Sun is good in this deck, wouldn't you consider running 2 to increase the chance of playing it? An other idea could be to run Vivien Reid, maybe instead of Sun and 1 or 2 assure/assemble? She's been a real good addition to my midrangy creature based green decks lately, makes sure you keep playing stuff that matters in the longer running games.


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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya Angels
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:25 am 
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I like Assure/Assemble, because it can be expensive but it's the closest thing to Blossoming Defense we have and isn't a dead late draw on an empty board vs. control.

I did have Immortal Sun higher, I think initially as a 3x, but I shaved them for Carnage Tyrant, which was coming out of my board vs. control and I generally needed main deck in Best of 1.

A pure Bo3 build would probably have -1 Carnage Tyrant, +1 Immortal Sun, SB -1 Revitalize, +1 Carnage Tyrant. I basically never board in the 4th Revitalize.

I think I need some other help vs. RDW and Boros Aggro to get alittle lower and a little quicker. Maybe I could free up sideboard slots, maybe -2 Trostani, +2 Deathgorge Scavenger.

Because I generally win that matchup if I resolve Lyra and lose if I don't, so that suggests she is more important than Trostani's life gain. Scavenger could help get me there post-board, or maybe there is an argument for having the 4th Lyra sideboard. Sure, extras would be dead copies, but 1 resolved is usually GG in those matchups.

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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya Angels
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:30 am 
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And currently I'm only 4-2 with the deck, still testing, just built yesterday.

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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya Angels
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:56 pm 
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Cards I want in the sideboard:

Ixalan's Binding or Conclave's Tribunal
Deathgorge Scavenger
Vine Mare
Shaper's Sanctuary
Thorn Luietenant
Vivien Reid


Plus everything I currently have. I think Honor Guard and Vine Mare likely occupy the same space, but I'm not sure which is better.

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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya Angels
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:51 pm 
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It's an interesting approach, but against the low to the ground aggressive decks you will probably struggle a lot, especially against an opponent with a fine tuned deck and good piloting skills. I think in general the go-wide approach may be better in the current meta (tokens), but of course that would deviate from your aim to build an angel-themed deck. There was one Selesnya token deck at the pro tour that did quite well, perhaps you could take a look at that for some ideas on how to better battle the aggro match ups?


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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya Angels
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:00 pm 
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Turbo wrote:
It's an interesting approach, but against the low to the ground aggressive decks you will probably struggle a lot, especially against an opponent with a fine tuned deck and good piloting skills. I think in general the go-wide approach may be better in the current meta (tokens), but of course that would deviate from your aim to build an angel-themed deck. There was one Selesnya token deck at the pro tour that did quite well, perhaps you could take a look at that for some ideas on how to better battle the aggro match ups?


Most Selesnya decks eschew mana dorks for main deck creatures like Vanguard and Thorn Lieutenant. That's a perfectly reasonable approach and one I understand, but I think the deck trying to do that is usually just going to be worse than Boros Angels, which has access to Deafing Clarion to clean up on turn 3. To compete, Selesnya really needs that early ramp for a T3 Shalai or T4 Lyra to stablize and take over.

In a best-of-1 world, I think the deck doesn't always line up great against the super low-to-the-ground decks. But then, I'm currently 2-2 in those matchups, so maybe something will give me more insight the more I play it out. I'm never really racing any deck except Stompy. Vs. control, I'm just looking to play out must-answer threats up the curve until I hit Tyrant. Vs. aggro, I just need to wait until Angels and life gain put me out of range.

Like most midrange-y decks, it is much stronger post-board, which is why I need to get all the wildcards and the sideboard set and start running it there.

Another interesting thought for the sideboard. I'd love to be able to run the "Find" half of "Find // Finality" in the grindier matchups. Recurring must-remove threats at a 2-for-1 clip is obviously a huge advantage.

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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya Angels
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:04 pm 
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All valid points, I also have thought of the Find part in decks that run green and no black at all (I tried a Naya angels version with Deafening Clarion, but dropped it due to lack of consistency). It makes sense, it's a very powerful card. It would be even better if you could manage the mana for a splash of black... maybe it would look something like this (I'll need to test it):

Main:
6 Plains (RIX) 192
1 Forest (RIX) 196
4 Sunpetal Grove (XLN) 257
4 Temple Garden (GRN) 258
4 Isolated Chapel (DAR) 241
4 Overgrown Tomb (GRN) 253
2 Flower // Flourish (GRN) 226
4 Adanto Vanguard (XLN) 1
3 Knight of Grace (DAR) 23
4 Thorn Lieutenant (M19) 203
4 Resplendent Angel (M19) 34
4 History of Benalia (DAR) 21
2 Shalai, Voice of Plenty (DAR) 35
2 Ixalan's Binding (XLN) 17
2 Ajani, Adversary of Tyrants (M19) 3
3 Lyra Dawnbringer (DAR) 26
2 Vivien Reid (M19) 208
2 Carnage Tyrant (XLN) 179
3 Find // Finality (GRN) 225

SB:
3 Knight of Autumn (GRN) 183
2 Settle the Wreckage (XLN) 34
3 Seal Away (DAR) 31
3 Tocatli Honor Guard (XLN) 42
2 Kraul Harpooner (GRN) 136
2 Trostani Discordant (GRN) 208

This also has quite some 2 drops to defend against the aggressive decks, and with 4x Find you can get plenty stuff back from your graveyard. If things get heated you can wipe T6 with counters on Lyra... in theory this sounds fun but I'm sure testing will prove it to be not so easy (as it often does when I get new ideas lol).


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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya Angels
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:09 pm 
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Not a bad list, but substantially different. Again, that is a list that wants to play more aggro than I would want, cutting the mana dorks and going much more into white for History of Benalia. Maybe it's a superior build, but not the route I think I want to go. I'd have trouble believing that deck isn't just a weaker version of Boros Angels, as at that point, your only sweepers are the 6-mana Finality which you lack any ramp to power out earlier.

You'd be trading my issues with RDW/WW/Boros for a different one.

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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya Angels
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:17 pm 
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I kinda agree Turbo list looks consistent but if you wanna go aggro or good stuff you can do better on an Boros shell.
Why not druids over elves Vert?
They are better holding the fort till you can deploy your late game
also Shalai´s ability should be the cornerstone of this deck, and in that scenario, you might wanna put some saproling migrations for full value -just a thought-

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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya Angels
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:20 pm 
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Druids over the Llanowar Elves? Interesting thought. I guess there isn't too much to ramp out T2, besides Resplendent Angel (on that sexy T1 Temple Garden line).

Sometimes I want mana open turn 2 for things like Revitalize or Seal Away, but it is an interesting idea that is worth testing.

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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya Angels
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:05 pm 
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divinevert wrote:
Not a bad list, but substantially different. Again, that is a list that wants to play more aggro than I would want, cutting the mana dorks and going much more into white for History of Benalia. Maybe it's a superior build, but not the route I think I want to go. I'd have trouble believing that deck isn't just a weaker version of Boros Angels, as at that point, your only sweepers are the 6-mana Finality which you lack any ramp to power out earlier.

You'd be trading my issues with RDW/WW/Boros for a different one.

Yeah I was just in a brewing mode, not saying you should change :) Maybe I'll test it or someone else will...


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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya Angels
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:41 pm 
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I feel like the March of the Multitudes should be cut. Feeled way more useful in concept than in practice. They may become main deck copies of Honor Guard, which gives me added sideboard play.

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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya Angels
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:34 pm 
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divinevert wrote:
I feel like the March of the Multitudes should be cut. Feeled way more useful in concept than in practice. They may become main deck copies of Honor Guard, which gives me added sideboard play.

I did that exactly on my boros pile, the deck has a lot more edge post SB with Tocatli on the main deck.

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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya Angels
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:04 pm 
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Selesnya Angels 2.0

Creature(21)
4 x Llanowar Elves
4 x Drover of the Mighty
4 x Resplendent Angel
1 x Tocatli Honor Guard
3 x Shalai, Voice of Plenty
3 x Lyra Dawnbringer
2 x Carnage Tyrant


Instant(9)
3 x Revitalize
3 x Settle the Wreckage
3 x Assure // Assemble


Enchantment(3)
3 x Seal Away


Artifact(2)
2 x The Immortal Sun


Land(25)
10 x Plains
7 x Forest
4 x Temple Garden
4 x Sunpetal Grove



Sideboard (15)

1 x Carnage Tyrant
3 x Baffling End
3 x Tocatli Honor Guard
2 x Deathgorge Scavenger
2 x Dawn of Hope
1 x Kinjalli's Sunwing
1 x Cleansing Nova
1 x Shapers' Sanctuary
1 x The Immortal Sun



Feel pretty good about this build. I just did a 5-1 in Competitive Constructed with it. It has good play vs. everything.

If you want to compare, the sideboard is significantly changed, the main deck is:

-2 March of the Multitudes
+1 Tocatli Honor Guard
+1 The Immortal Sun

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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya Angels
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:56 pm 
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Have not played the deck, but I'd be looking at:

- Drover of the Mighty (why would you run this anyway - only two other dinosaurs in your deck, they're 1/1s that don't block well, and they die to Chainwhirler)
+ Druid of the Cowl (would refrain from too many copies of Druid since you'd flood out with half the deck as mana)
- Resplendent Angel (possibly contentious, but it's still just a 3/3 flyer for 3, not bad but not great either. It's inefficient to trigger the lifelink clause, and even with Lyra on the battlefield she doesn't hit for enough to create tokens)
+ Adanto Vanguard or Thorn Lieutenant (2-drops that beat control and red respectively)
+ History of Benalia (why on Earth would you not run this?!)
- Seal Away (too narrow)
+ Ixalan's Binding and Conclave Tribunal (gives you removal for non-creatures)

Heavily skeptical of the 9 instants as well. Why not Knight of Autumn? I'd play Vivien Reid also, but you have The Immortal Sun which is a nonbo with planeswalkers.


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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya Angels
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:58 pm 
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I like Drover over Druid because the amount of double white in the deck. They aren't there to block and RDW is a very winnable matchup even if they got burnt out. It's the best option I have without Conduit or a Rampant Growth effect. They can also become much more consistent 3/3s post-board with the extra dinos coming in.

Pulling Resplendent Angel is definitely going to be a no from me, dawg. Between Shalai protecting it and the combo with Lyra, it is the heart and soul of the deck.

I specifically avoided planeswalkers because I much prefer The Immortal Sun. I'm running quite hot with it (three 7-x runs in a row and a 5-1 CC run), probably slightly above expectation, but it faces very little hate.

Sure, vs. Jeskai Control, I am quite dependent on Carnage Tyrant, but ramping that even a turn early or even just dicking around until I draw it is usually GG.

I understand the desire for 2-drops, but again, that isn't really what the deck wants to be. I want to play much more like ramp than a midrange-y deck, just trying to power out my big threats to take over.

I did make a -1 Revitalize, +1 Honor Guard // SB: -1 Honor Guard, +1 Knight of Autumn change. I'd love to have more play against Frenzy, but it hasn't come up much, because RDW decks rarely play competitive and I'm not going to maindeck enchantment or artifact hate.

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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya Angels
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:22 pm 
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However if you look at Frank Karsten's analysis for how many colored sources you need, 18 white sources is sufficient to reliably cast Resplendent Angel on turn 3 and Lyra on turn 5, so I'm still not a fan of Drover.

Problem with Resplendent Angel is that you need to gain five life. Ways to do that would be:

- activating the angel (costs 6 mana)
- having Resplendent Angel with a +1/+1 counter on it as well as Lyra on the battlefield (unrealistic, at this point it's basically win more)
- attacking once with Lyra (same as above, you're basically winning already, although this does push the game from winning to won)
- chaining two Revitalize (seems too cute to me too)

Since all of that don't seem too realistic, I'd seriously look at alternatives. Like I wrote I really don't see why you're not running History of Benalia in the slot. Even if Resplendent Angel is really good, History just looks too good to not run.

I find Jeskai usually has a plan to beat Carnage Tyrant e.g. Settle or Cleansing Nova, so I wouldn't count on it winning the game (it's also a 2-of in your deck). Might go up to three if you're not running Adanto Vanguard (which single-handedly walks over Jeskai). Knight of Autumn maindeck would be for more than just Experimental Frenzy, it also answers Conclave Tribunal, Legion's Landing, History of Benalia, Ixalan's Binding ... worst case scenario it's still a 4/3 for 3. Vivien would be both a card advantage planeswalker and a way to kill Lyra. Your deck looks vulnerable to Lyra to be honest, you have no good way to get her off the board once she resolves. I'd be looking at Conclave Tribunal / Ixalan's Binding for this exact situation, or maybe even something like Crushing Canopy in the sideboard. Vivien is also enchantment hate.

If you're more of a ramp deck than midrange, why not run Pelakka Wurm? Also, what's Assure//Assemble for? It looks like a weak combat trick, doesn't do a good Blossoming Defenses impression (costs twice the mana and doesn't answer exile removal), and by turn 6, making three 2/2 knights hardly seems strong in a deck that isn't looking to go wide.


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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya Angels
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:08 pm 
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Resplendent is the tits. That's just the way it is. He's playing midrange so the activation cost is well bought. RDW though... She eats removal EVERY time unless you can protect her and of course there is Lyra to help her along also. Even though I built it to meme, Resplendent goes really well in my Paladin deck also because of that awesome bad card Squire's Devotion and the 4 Marshals I have.
I digress.
It gets harder to call it an Angel deck without her. She's the workhorse.

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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya Angels
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:41 pm 
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Banedon wrote:
However if you look at Frank Karsten's analysis for how many colored sources you need, 18 white sources is sufficient to reliably cast Resplendent Angel on turn 3 and Lyra on turn 5, so I'm still not a fan of Drover.

Problem with Resplendent Angel is that you need to gain five life. Ways to do that would be:

- activating the angel (costs 6 mana)
- having Resplendent Angel with a +1/+1 counter on it as well as Lyra on the battlefield (unrealistic, at this point it's basically win more)
- attacking once with Lyra (same as above, you're basically winning already, although this does push the game from winning to won)
- chaining two Revitalize (seems too cute to me too)

Since all of that don't seem too realistic, I'd seriously look at alternatives. Like I wrote I really don't see why you're not running History of Benalia in the slot. Even if Resplendent Angel is really good, History just looks too good to not run.

I find Jeskai usually has a plan to beat Carnage Tyrant e.g. Settle or Cleansing Nova, so I wouldn't count on it winning the game (it's also a 2-of in your deck). Might go up to three if you're not running Adanto Vanguard (which single-handedly walks over Jeskai). Knight of Autumn maindeck would be for more than just Experimental Frenzy, it also answers Conclave Tribunal, Legion's Landing, History of Benalia, Ixalan's Binding ... worst case scenario it's still a 4/3 for 3. Vivien would be both a card advantage planeswalker and a way to kill Lyra. Your deck looks vulnerable to Lyra to be honest, you have no good way to get her off the board once she resolves. I'd be looking at Conclave Tribunal / Ixalan's Binding for this exact situation, or maybe even something like Crushing Canopy in the sideboard. Vivien is also enchantment hate.

If you're more of a ramp deck than midrange, why not run Pelakka Wurm? Also, what's Assure//Assemble for? It looks like a weak combat trick, doesn't do a good Blossoming Defenses impression (costs twice the mana and doesn't answer exile removal), and by turn 6, making three 2/2 knights hardly seems strong in a deck that isn't looking to go wide.


Resplendent + Angel isnt really win more. The thought process is to have high threat density of must remove threats. T2 Resplendent is the ideal line for the deck. If they remove it, they remove it, but thats one less removal for my next play.

I'll say Assure is not Blossoming, but it is flexible protection from sweepers and tricks, including Cleansing Nova. Assemble lets me rebuild 6 points of power and it isnt a dead draw on an empty board, which was a problem with BD.

Pelakka Wurm, if you werent just being flippant, is just kinda worse and more expensive than the threats I have. I dont think you could find a spot for it, even massive reworking the deck.

I do wonder if the sideboard shouldnt just have the 4th Lyra and 4th Carnage Tyrant for the respective matchups. Worth considering.

Playing vs. other decks running Lyra, I guess my answers would be my exile effects and just resolving mine first.

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