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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:57 am 
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Yeah I read that post, saw your comment :)

I tried the previous decklist yesterday evening, and although I did go 3-3 in quick constructed, it felt like the weaker little brother of Golgari somewhat... when I won, I did not use the Mirari Conjecture at all, it was my small creatures that did enough damage with all the removal keeping the way clear. Before I could use Mirari, I had already won. But I also lost kinda horribly against 2 control decks (missing Carny) and 1 BR tempo deck. It needs more testing to be able to say more about it I guess.

In the post you mentioned the list from Neokarasu caught my eye, I think that might be the way forward for Sultai.


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:15 am 
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It's not like I'm defending Mirari, because it might be wrong to push towards it,especially that if you run so much removal, do you really need to bring it back instead of drawing the next one? But it really saved my ass a few times against Jeskai Control when he already blew his counters and I could happily get back the Trophy and Find. But it wouldn't be possible without the early pressure generated by my creatures, especially Midnight Reaper which made the clarions a joke as I drew 2-3 cards a turn and then just brought back stuff with F//F.


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:21 pm 
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Ok, this is what I'm going to test, will probably have to buy the crystals tho :-)

5 Forest (DAR) 266
4 Hinterland Harbor (DAR) 240
4 Woodland Cemetery (DAR) 248
4 Jadelight Ranger (RIX) 136
2 Ravenous Chupacabra (RIX) 82
4 Vraska's Contempt (XLN) 129
3 Wildgrowth Walker (XLN) 216
4 Merfolk Branchwalker (XLN) 197
4 Drowned Catacomb (XLN) 253
2 Vivien Reid (M19) 208
3 Midnight Reaper (GRN) 77
4 Assassin's Trophy (GRN) 152
4 Thief of Sanity (GRN) 205
3 Find // Finality (GRN) 225
4 Overgrown Tomb (GRN) 253
4 Watery Grave (GRN) 259
2 Carnage Tyrant (XLN) 179

With 4 Contempt and 4 Trophy I probably don't need the Mirari anymore, although I will miss it due to the possibility of ditching sorceries to the GY. I also dropped the Findbroker which was there mostly to get the Mirari/Walkers back. Although I might add it back or the 3rd Vivien in case Vraska doesn't perform.
The list is inspired by the deck from /r spikes, but I decided to not go with the erasures and instead play additional 2x Trophy and 2x Midnight Reaper because I like it so much.

Any thoughts?


Last edited by Auunj on Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:55 pm 
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I ditched Muldrotha and all the top end, went for 23 lands, 4 Thought Erasure and Thief of Sanity as the only U cards, also went 3 Midnight Reaper.
Gonna run a couple of QC and report

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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:41 pm 
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Great. Post the list. It's a bit similar to what the dude from spikes played. Only he played 25 lands and ditched the Squires.

I'm not sold on the Thought Erasure. Especially if you're running 3x Midnight Reaper I suppose you want a lot of creatures. But going low to the ground seems like a good plan. I considered it myself.


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:35 am 
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I ditched Muldrotha and all the top end, went for 23 lands, 4 Thought Erasure and Thief of Sanity as the only U cards, also went 3 Midnight Reaper.
Gonna run a couple of QC and report

Would love to hear your results and a list too :) I think Thought Erasure may be a nice way to defend the Thief, to make sure it really pays off.


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:34 am 
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Just did a quick play with this list:

4 Forest (DAR) 266
4 Hinterland Harbor (DAR) 240
4 Woodland Cemetery (DAR) 248
4 Jadelight Ranger (RIX) 136
2 Ravenous Chupacabra (RIX) 82
4 Vraska's Contempt (XLN) 129
3 Wildgrowth Walker (XLN) 216
4 Merfolk Branchwalker (XLN) 197
4 Drowned Catacomb (XLN) 253
3 Midnight Reaper (GRN) 77
4 Assassin's Trophy (GRN) 152
4 Thief of Sanity (GRN) 205
3 Find // Finality (GRN) 225
4 Overgrown Tomb (GRN) 253
4 Watery Grave (GRN) 259
1 Island
4 Thought Erasure

Went pretty well against jeskai control who had to blow his counters due to 2x erasure, although if I didn't have the reaper I'd be topdecking. Deck probably needs some walkers, either Karn or Vivien (although with Erasure we are nearing 20 instatnts/sorceries and Vivien will draw us more and more lands).

Can't really decide how to build the list. From my previous one I'll probably drop little Vraska and add the 3rd Reaper.

I'm also wondering if with 4 Trophy and 4 Contempt (and 4 Erasure!) I really need the Chupacabra? It's still a creature that can block, destroy and is fodder for Reaper.


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:27 am 
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That list would get obliterated by RDW.

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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:30 am 
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Good point. What's the solution?

4 branch, 3-4 wgw, 3 squires don't help with Cast down and trophy mix (5 total)


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:33 am 
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Auunj wrote:
Good point. What's the solution?

4 branch, 3-4 wgw, 3 squires don't help with Cast down and trophy mix (5 total)


-2 Thought Erasure
-1 Assassin's Trophy

+3 Moment of Craving

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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:42 am 
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I agree, but you gimp yourself against everything else :-/

If I played 2 TE I think I'd drop them completely and just go with the Thiefs as blue splash.

And I could just drop the chupas for craving


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:05 am 
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well, it was better but in the end, it crashed and burned awfully... I think I´m about done with sultai for the moment...
here is the list I piloted, It went 3-3 and 2-3


3 Ravenous Chupacabra (RIX) 82
3 Find // Finality (GRN) 225
4 Merfolk Branchwalker (XLN) 197
4 Jadelight Ranger (RIX) 136
3 Vraska's Contempt (XLN) 129
4 Forest (RIX) 196
2 Memorial to Folly (DAR) 242
2 Hinterland Harbor (DAR) 240
3 Drowned Catacomb (XLN) 253
4 Watery Grave (GRN) 259
4 Woodland Cemetery (DAR) 248
4 Overgrown Tomb (GRN) 253
2 Vraska, Golgari Queen (GRN) 213
3 Thief of Sanity (GRN) 205
2 Cast Down (DAR) 81
3 Midnight Reaper (GRN) 77
3 Assassin's Trophy (GRN) 152
3 Thought Erasure (GRN) 206
2 Golgari Findbroker (GRN) 175
2 Moment of Craving (RIX) 79

2 Moment of Craving (RIX) 79
2 Plaguecrafter (GRN) 82
2 Ritual of Soot (GRN) 84
1 Assassin's Trophy (GRN) 152
4 Duress (M19) 94

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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:49 am 
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Ok, I dropped Sultai. Again. It just doesn't make sense.

Went with GB full explore and spells with a lot of recursion.

8 Forest (DAR) 266
4 Woodland Cemetery (DAR) 248
4 Jadelight Ranger (RIX) 136
4 Vraska's Contempt (XLN) 129
4 Wildgrowth Walker (XLN) 216
4 Merfolk Branchwalker (XLN) 197
2 Vivien Reid (M19) 208
3 Midnight Reaper (GRN) 77
4 Assassin's Trophy (GRN) 152
4 Find // Finality (GRN) 225
4 Overgrown Tomb (GRN) 253
2 Carnage Tyrant (XLN) 179
5 Swamp (RIX) 194
2 Vraska, Golgari Queen (GRN) 213
3 Seekers' Squire (XLN) 121
2 Memorial to Folly (DAR) 242
1 Golgari Findbroker (GRN) 175


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:36 pm 
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I don't know if you could call this Sultai really, because it's only splashing blue for 3x Hadana's Climb, but this deck has been running pretty good so far. Sultai seems to not fit in the current meta.
I've been trying to make a Jund deck work too, but sadly, it gets beat by both ends...aggro and control.

This Golgari/Sultai deck went 5-1 in a competitive constructed just now, and seems to be able to win vs a good portion of the meta. Has some ability to survive RDW, and it won against mono-blue tempo, and also Izzet Drakes. Loss was to Dimir Control with lots of discard. Just couldn't catch up from the drained hands. Still went 1-2 vs it though.

Hadana fits super well with this deck theme with all the explore counters flying around. Late game you can flip it and end the game in the same turn - it really adds a big tempo component to the otherwise pure midrange.

Here's the imported list...any suggestions for the sideboard? Too many blue lands? Not sold on Midnight Reaper so far. It's usually my first cut after round 1 and I usually sub in Golden Demise vs boros and more Vraska's Contempt vs midrange/control.

4 Llanowar Elves (DAR) 168
7 Forest (RIX) 196
4 Merfolk Branchwalker (XLN) 197
3 Seekers' Squire (XLN) 121
4 Swamp (RIX) 194
3 Wildgrowth Walker (XLN) 216
4 Jadelight Ranger (RIX) 136
2 Midnight Reaper (GRN) 77
3 Ravenous Chupacabra (RIX) 82
2 Carnage Tyrant (XLN) 179
2 Vivien Reid (M19) 208
1 Vraska, Relic Seeker (XLN) 232
1 Cast Down (DAR) 81
2 Vraska's Contempt (XLN) 129
2 Find // Finality (GRN) 225
1 Memorial to Folly (DAR) 242
3 Overgrown Tomb (GRN) 253
3 Woodland Cemetery (DAR) 248
3 Hadana's Climb (RIX) 158
2 Watery Grave (GRN) 259
1 Drowned Catacomb (XLN) 253
3 Hinterland Harbor (DAR) 240

3 Duress (M19) 94
2 Cast Down (DAR) 81
1 Wildgrowth Walker (XLN) 216
2 Golden Demise (RIX) 73
2 Thrashing Brontodon (RIX) 148
2 Vraska's Contempt (XLN) 129
1 Vraska, Relic Seeker (XLN) 232
2 Vraska, Golgari Queen (GRN) 213


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:49 am 
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Hi Ballz, here's what I can say about your brew, which looks like a fun variation on Golgari. Mind you I have not been able to test it because I lack 2 rare WC for 2x Climb.

First of all the explore package is very strong, but I would swap 1x Seekers' Squire for a 4th maindeck Wildgrowth Walker (the pay off for a sticky Walker is just so huge!).
If you dislike Midnight Reaper you could consider running 1x Thrashing Brontodon and another Vraska's Contempt in the main. The latter is very important against decks with sticky stuff like all sorts of Phoenixes, and also against Plainswalkers of course. Bronto is not a bad 3-drop especially against aggro with its 4 toughness, add to that it can help you get rid of a nasty enchantment or artifact if needed.
Other than this I would probably swap the main deck Vraska, Relic Seeker for a 3rd Carnage Tyrant, to improve the odds of getting a flying 14/6 trample hexproof.
As far as lands go, if you wish to consistently cast Hadana's Climb on turn 3, you need more sources of blue. For that you would need 11 sources of blue mana, and counting the explore creatures as 1-2 of those, you still lack at least 3. To cast it on turn 4 I would guess adding 1-2 more would be fine though. So it depends on how quickly you want it down, but I'd say asap since it's a key card in the deck. Also, judging from the low amount of rare lands you used, you are perhaps low on rare wildcards (who isnt), since the deck would also benefit from the full sets of green/black duals (only 6 of those in the current build).
One last thing, if you are low on lands that come into play tapped, you could also include 1-2x more Memorial to Folly, which just adds some extra recursion in the mid to late game.

For the SB, I would advise 1 more Duress (4 is nice vs any control), and perhaps some Necrotic Wound to remove more sticky creatures (I run 2 of those in my Golgari based sideboards).


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:00 am 
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I just can't let go of Sultai :D

Testing a very low to the ground list now that goes like this:
12 all explorers
4 wgw
4 thief
4 f//f
4 trophy
4 contempt
4 reaper
1 immortal sun
23 land

So far so good, lots of chumps and wiping. No walkers at the moment :o

Reaper are mvp as they draws a lot of cards a game


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:14 am 
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Just read an analysis on GB from PT: https://www.reddit.com/r/spikes/comment ... om_the_pt/

the GB decks that performed best had only 2 walkers. The more walkers the decks had the worse the results because of the aggro meta.


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:53 am 
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Ok. Giving up on Sultai and Golgari. It's just not that good. Playing mono white is faster, more rewarding and less stressful.

Golgari has problems against fast aggro in white and red. Drakes and mono blue are a problem too sometimes and grixis/jeskai control can be a pain also if you don't draw the right mix.


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:23 am 
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in short ... it stinks!
we did gave it a shot tho :D

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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:48 am 
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Yeah, the only version I didn't try is UB splash green for Trophy. Dunno if Vraska is worth a splash, maybe Tyrant.


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