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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:56 am 
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Now that I'm playing more spells and Vraskas are pretty unimpressive I'm considering playing The Immortal Sun. Testing 1 at the moment which I have with 2x Vivien.


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:31 am 
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I went 2-1 on CC BO3 and 2-3 on the QC BO1
The deck is off the beat on the current meta...
On the ladder it holds up but on competitive play it gets out powered pretty fast, best games where when I was able to cast and recast Thief of Saniny, I think that its very high pay off for going Sultai.

2 inmortal Suns sounds fun with Muldratha, I was thinking on crafting the second one but I’m not sold yet.
What do you guys think of the 2cmc tutor -Mausoleum Secrets- on the deck... I’m going to test one copy for the full swiss knife shenanigans

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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:46 pm 
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So, after playing a lot of games I gave up on Sultai. While the concept is nice the game is just to fast to reliably cast Mirari and Muldrotha and then profit from them, it's much better to just cast the GB walkers and kill the threats. Maybe, as Vert said, the way to go should be UB control with a green splash for Assassin's Trophy and maybe Carnage Tyrant, just because it's awersome.

I'm testing this GB deck now:

GB Mid

Creature(22)
3 x Seekers' Squire
4 x Merfolk Branchwalker
3 x Wildgrowth Walker
2 x Midnight Reaper
4 x Jadelight Ranger
3 x Ravenous Chupacabra
1 x Golgari Findbroker
2 x Carnage Tyrant

Instant(6)
1 x Cast Down
3 x Assassin's Trophy
2 x Vraska's Contempt

Sorcery(3)
3 x Find // Finality

Planeswalker(6)
2 x Vraska, Golgari Queen
2 x Vivien Reid
2 x Vraska, Relic Seeker

Land(23)
6 x Swamp
8 x Forest
1 x Memorial to Folly
4 x Overgrown Tomb
4 x Woodland Cemetery

Created on Magic Arena Deckbuilder: https://www.magicarenadeckbuilder.com/d ... 915df1bcf5


Spoiler


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:59 pm 
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Quote:
So, after playing a lot of games I gave up on Sultai. While the concept is nice the game is just to fast to reliably cast Mirari and Muldrotha and then profit from them, it's much better to just cast the GB walkers and kill the threats. Maybe, as Vert said, the way to go should be UB control with a green splash for Assassin's Trophy and maybe Carnage Tyrant, just because it's awersome.

Seems like we came to the same conclusion. I also tried the UB control + splash green, but alas, that came to the same conclusion as well. Golgari is just better! Your deck idea seems nice, I'm testing a similar deck, will post something on that soon when I run some more Competitive Bo3's.


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:52 pm 
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I just can't give up on it. After modifying the GB to:

Spoiler


I dropped the big vraskas as I need all the early game to fight UR, Boros, Selesnya, MonoU and MonoR. By the time I had been able to cast Vraska I usually was dead. This deck ensures that I can actually get to the late game and grind. Thus a lot of instant removal again Velocity Drakes, Flamekins etc. On top of that the lifegain, explorers to chump and 3 Find/Finality to wipe tokens.
So based on that I still wanted to have the ability to grind the graveyard (instants in particular) and explore instatns/sorceries into the graveyard without 2nd thought, so back to Sultai. I kept the early game in tact with all the explorers and instants to take care of anything possible.
I removed 1 Tyrant, 1 Chupacabra, 1 Findbroker and 1 Small Vraska. Then added back Hostage Taker (same role as Chupa), 1 Mirari (in place of Findbroker) and 2 Muldrotha (for 1 tyrant and 1 Vraska).
Let's see how it goes... again :-) The early game should ensure that now I can handle the early game and actually utilize the blue addition...

The new list:
Sultai Muldrotha

Creature(23)
3 x Seekers' Squire
4 x Merfolk Branchwalker
4 x Wildgrowth Walker
2 x Midnight Reaper
4 x Jadelight Ranger
2 x Ravenous Chupacabra
1 x Hostage Taker
1 x Carnage Tyrant
2 x Muldrotha, the Gravetide

Instant(7)
2 x Cast Down
3 x Assassin's Trophy
2 x Vraska's Contempt

Sorcery(3)
3 x Find // Finality

Enchantment(1)
1 x The Mirari Conjecture

Planeswalker(3)
1 x Vraska, Golgari Queen
2 x Vivien Reid

Land(23)
1 x Island
6 x Forest
4 x Overgrown Tomb
4 x Woodland Cemetery
2 x Drowned Catacomb
4 x Watery Grave
2 x Hinterland Harbor

Created on Magic Arena Deckbuilder: https://www.magicarenadeckbuilder.com/d ... e654bcb80e


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:02 pm 
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Interesting list but against RDW for example, Hostage taker can't take over from Chupa, because he will get bolted. So I would not replace it. Let me know if it works after you get some experience with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:33 pm 
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Just did -1 Vraska, +1 Vivien, -1 Tyrant, +1 Cast Down.

Vraska is fine, but Vivien is sure draw. On top of that I have the reapers for draw.
With the amount of games I lost to RDW and Izzet Velocity Drakes I feel I really need the 3 Cast Downs on top of the 3 Assassin's Trophy. Besides, those spells are great in other matchups too.
The control matchup isn't bad with all the cheap spells, so I don't feel like I really need the Tyrants.
I actually had a similar feeling about Hostage Taker with all the removal flying around. But if I face a deck that already burnt it's removal or I'm at 6-7 mana, then hostage taker is actually better. I will test more.

So the most actual decks is:

Sultai Muldrotha
Creature(20)
3 x Seekers' Squire
4 x Merfolk Branchwalker
3 x Wildgrowth Walker
2 x Midnight Reaper
4 x Jadelight Ranger
2 x Ravenous Chupacabra
2 x Muldrotha, the Gravetide

Instant(8)
2 x Cast Down
4 x Assassin's Trophy
2 x Vraska's Contempt

Sorcery(3)
3 x Find // Finality

Enchantment(3)
2 x The Mirari Conjecture
1 x Journey to Eternity

Planeswalker(3)
3 x Vivien Reid

Land(23)
1 x Island
6 x Forest
4 x Overgrown Tomb
4 x Woodland Cemetery
2 x Drowned Catacomb
4 x Watery Grave
2 x Hinterland Harbor


Last edited by Auunj on Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:55 pm 
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Ok, more changes. I added a Journey to Eternity to the deck as another way to abuse graveyard. 2x Cast Down (-1), 4x Assassin's Trophy (+1). Need more ways to deal with legendaries, walkers and pesky lands. Dropped one Ravenous Chupacabra. With all those instants and getting flooded with useless Wildgrowth Walkers I dropped to 3 and added a 2nd The Mirari Conjecture. I need to draw it more reliably to kill everything with the shiny instants and get creatures back with F//F.

WGW doesn't help much against early aggro as it gets removed, so I try not to play it before t4 with an explorer in hand.


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:59 am 
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Ok, I think I know what's wrong.

Muldrotha is a trap :-)

The deck really want to be low to the ground with instant removal (Drakes, mono Red etc.) and creature recursion - so the instants and sorceries are fine I think. But 2x Muldrotha should be 2x Findbroker. Muldrotha is to slow and can get removed too easily before it makes any impact. Findbroker gets you a permanent back the moment it ETBs and is cheaper so you can do 2 spells in a turn easier. The blue splash is fine but for Mirari to recurr the Trophies/Contempts and getting it back with Findbroker.

Findbroker allows us to play Folly instead of the Island. With the amount of instants I replaced the Viviens with 2x Small Vraska for card draw. Let's see how this deck performs now, here's the list:

6 Forest (RIX) 196
2 Vraska's Contempt (XLN) 129
3 Find // Finality (GRN) 225
3 Assassin's Trophy (GRN) 152
3 Ravenous Chupacabra (RIX) 82
4 Merfolk Branchwalker (XLN) 197
4 Overgrown Tomb (GRN) 253
4 Woodland Cemetery (DAR) 248
4 Jadelight Ranger (RIX) 136
3 Wildgrowth Walker (XLN) 216
2 The Mirari Conjecture (DAR) 57
2 Drowned Catacomb (XLN) 253
4 Watery Grave (GRN) 259
2 Hinterland Harbor (DAR) 240
3 Cast Down (DAR) 81
3 Seekers' Squire (XLN) 121
2 Midnight Reaper (GRN) 77
1 Journey to Eternity (RIX) 160
2 Vraska, Golgari Queen (GRN) GR8
1 Memorial to Folly (DAR) 242
2 Golgari Findbroker (GRN) 175

I don't have the 4th Trophy, so still playing 3x Cast Down / 3x Trophy.


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:07 am 
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If I were to play this Bo3, I would change it a bit into:

4 Forest (RIX) 196
3 Vraska's Contempt (XLN) 129
3 Find // Finality (GRN) 225
3 Assassin's Trophy (GRN) 152
3 Ravenous Chupacabra (RIX) 82
4 Merfolk Branchwalker (XLN) 197
4 Overgrown Tomb (GRN) 253
4 Woodland Cemetery (DAR) 248
4 Jadelight Ranger (RIX) 136
2 Wildgrowth Walker (XLN) 216
2 The Mirari Conjecture (DAR) 57
1 Drowned Catacomb (XLN) 253
4 Watery Grave (GRN) 259
4 Hinterland Harbor (DAR) 240
2 Cast Down (DAR) 81
2 Seekers' Squire (XLN) 121
3 Midnight Reaper (GRN) 77
1 Memorial to Folly (DAR) 242
2 Golgari Findbroker (GRN) 175
2 Carnage Tyrant (XLN) 179
1 Karn, Scion of Urza (DAR) 1
2 Golgari Guildgate (GRN) 249

The mana has been smoothed to allow you to cast 1GG and 2BB consistently on turns 3 and 4, and The Mirari Conjecture on turn 5 if needed. I also really like Karn over small Vraska turn 4, unless playing vs very aggressive aggro decks, but for that I would sideboard anyway (Ritual of Soot/Golden Demise). Also I think Vraska's Contempt is very important these days to remove those pesky Phoenixes, and it works well together with The Mirari Conjecture. If running 3 Vraska's Contempt you only need max. 3 Trophy's too (which is already high, since it's a mid-game card, giving someone an extra land early game is very bad). I would also add 2 Carnage Tyrant just because it's so good against control and midgame decks. The sideboard would also contain, besides Soot/Demise, 4x Duress and the 2 remaining Wildgrowth Walkers, among others (possibly some Moment of Craving for the lifegain and killing Adanto's).


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:26 am 
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Unluckily I don't have the Karn and 3rd contempt. For lands I'm using what i have from the duals, so I'm also missing the Hinterlands.

I opted for 3 Squires although I don't really like them, because I have problems with drawing lands early lately... yesterday on the other hand I had a game where I had 3 WGW and couldn't draw any of the 11 explorers... this game hates me :-)

I agree on the 3rd contempt. I'll blow my next WC on Contempt and replace the cast down.

Tyrants really are great, but for the moment I'll try to stick low to the ground. If it won't work out, I'll add them back.

I might go with 3rd reaper even now, I like him, especially when i wipe with F//F :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:06 pm 
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Finally, Mirari stage III + Find // Finality :D
So far deck works like a charm :-)

Current deck:
6 Forest (RIX) 196
2 Vraska's Contempt (XLN) 129
3 Find // Finality (GRN) 225
3 Assassin's Trophy (GRN) 152
3 Ravenous Chupacabra (RIX) 82
4 Merfolk Branchwalker (XLN) 197
4 Overgrown Tomb (GRN) 253
4 Woodland Cemetery (DAR) 248
4 Jadelight Ranger (RIX) 136
3 Wildgrowth Walker (XLN) 216
2 The Mirari Conjecture (DAR) 57
2 Drowned Catacomb (XLN) 253
4 Watery Grave (GRN) 259
2 Hinterland Harbor (DAR) 240
2 Cast Down (DAR) 81
3 Seekers' Squire (XLN) 121
2 Midnight Reaper (GRN) 77
2 Vraska, Golgari Queen (GRN) GR8
1 Memorial to Folly (DAR) 242
2 Golgari Findbroker (GRN) 175
2 Vivien Reid (M19) 208

4 Duress (M19) 94
1 Wildgrowth Walker (XLN) 216
2 Carnage Tyrant (XLN) 179
3 Ritual of Soot (GRN) 84
2 Cast Down (DAR) 81
2 Vraska, Relic Seeker (XLN) 232
1 Vivien Reid (M19) 208


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:18 pm 
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Nice, have you played some bo3, or better yet, competitive constructed? I'm curious if it can stand it's ground there (I do hope so, it's a cool idea!)


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:35 pm 
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Nah, BO1 constructed event so far. I'd have to work on the sideboard, just jammed whatever I thought might be useful in different setups.
I would need more time to play BO3 and my daughter doesn't go to bed before 9-10pm...

Thinking about changes, I have to test Karns once I get them. Seems that everybody is moving away from Vraska to Karn and this list is pretty much golgari with the addition of recurring instants and sorceries, which helped me in quite a few games. Especially vs counter-control it's nice when they blow everything, think that everything's settled and then the removal and creatures come back and back ;-)

But this is for sure going to be the next stage of testing. So far I'm trying to cover everything BO1 can throw at me.

Any tips on sideboard? I've read mixed reviews on Unmoored Ego, might test it myself with access to blue.

PS. Just had my 1st 2x Vraska's Contempt with Mirari III. 4 Creatures gone and swing for the win with Vraska's Emblem. Magic Christmasland.


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:29 am 
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Sweet. I think your SB is already pretty decent. Might find room for a 3rd Vraska Contempt perhaps?

A more in depth argument on why Unmoored Ego isn't all that good (I think I agree with that): https://www.reddit.com/r/spikes/comment ... t1_e8zizwa

So how well does it do in constructed Bo1? Are there any decks that pose a problem? My experience is that 1/2 of the opponents there play some form of RDW, does it do well against those?


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:19 am 
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Need to get 3rd Contempt. Although I already have the rare wc for it.
On Assassin's Trophy, I think I might ditch the cast downs. I know, I know, I'm ramping my opponent, but on the other hand I don't care if I ramp most of my opponents as long the steamkin t2 is gone, the nasty enchantment I need to deal with (hi divine visitation or frenzy) or the walker that has protection is blown away. Hen I'd have room for the 3rd contempt.

On RDW, yeah, that's a real pain in the ass. Sometimes I win and sometimes when they curve out I lose even with a good hand on play.
I thought that I should jam in more wgw. but I gimp myself vs other decks. On top of that the wgw and explorers don't really help as they get blown up the moment they come into play. Maybe the contempt will help a bit due to the lifegain. 1for1 removal also doesn't bring me much further as they have a lot of cheap threats and with good draws they still can topdeck decently. How is golgari dealing with it? Llanowar into bigger threats? At t5 I'm usually in lethal range just waiting for either factor or frenzy :-/
The deck is good vs izzet drakes due to the high instant removal count which standard golgari decks miss. I think that the instant/sorcery route is the way to go as even against tokens I need to clear the lords.

Overall in the 2 runs I did RDW was the only threat and it's menagable. Needs more runs though.


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:46 am 
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Quote:
On Assassin's Trophy, I think I might ditch the cast downs. I know, I know, I'm ramping my opponent, but on the other hand I don't care if I ramp most of my opponents as long the steamkin t2 is gone, the nasty enchantment I need to deal with (hi divine visitation or frenzy) or the walker that has protection is blown away. Hen I'd have room for the 3rd contempt.

Hmm, I mostly agree, just Steamkin T2 is giving the RDW opponent 4 mana on his next turn, I'm not 100% sure that is the best idea (though perhaps it is). I'm a lot more sure about your other examples, they are all quite valid in my opinion. I mean, if you Trophy a Frenzy or walker, you are usually at least at turn 4-5, which is close enough near midgame where it doesn't matter too much when you give them an extra land. I would usually run 2 Trophy, but I think 3 is doable too, depending on how much Contempt you run. I now run 3 Contempt, 2 Trophy in the main (in my Golgari deck, that is).

Quote:
On RDW, yeah, that's a real pain in the ass. Sometimes I win and sometimes when they curve out I lose even with a good hand on play.
I thought that I should jam in more wgw. but I gimp myself vs other decks. On top of that the wgw and explorers don't really help as they get blown up the moment they come into play. Maybe the contempt will help a bit due to the lifegain. 1for1 removal also doesn't bring me much further as they have a lot of cheap threats and with good draws they still can topdeck decently. How is golgari dealing with it? Llanowar into bigger threats? At t5 I'm usually in lethal range just waiting for either factor or frenzy :-/

Golgari has the same problem. Wgw can be good if it sticks, but it is more of a T4 play -> 1 wgw, then 1 explore and *pray* they don't bolt the wgw... if it sticks, your survival odds go up astronomically. If it doesn't, that's 1 less burn to the face, and we try to resurrect it later and try again (if we still live). Does that warrant inclusion of wgw? I'm not 100% sure, but I think as a 2-off, they are quite decent. Perhaps in Pro Tour next weekend we will see some cool ideas on how to deal, or perhaps BG-midrange won't be played so much anymore, we will see. Your suggestion of ramping into Carny is usually how it goes, though, but that is often not quick enough against RDW (they bolt the elf). I've tried to combat this with Ritual of Soot in the past, but even that is usually not quick enough. I'm going to try play Golden Demise in the SB just to see if a T3 wipe may actually be helpful.

One advantage of playing competitive Bo3 though, is you meet a lot less RDW decks. Most people (me included) play it in the quick event to farm gold/cards/dailies (which makes sense, its fast!)


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:39 am 
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Of course killing a steamkin t2 with trophy isn't optimal, but it's much better than taking 4 damage from it T3 and letting them dump the mana ;-) I usually take the 2 damage and kill it at end step. Cast Down is better for sure, but I'm looking for versatility. In this situation cast down is better, but what if there's no steamkin, but Frenzy on T4 cast down is pretty useless ;-) and that's just RDW, against Jeskai Cast Down is usually worthless and I want to cover every matchup in the 1st game / BO1.


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:18 pm 
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After reading this topic on /r spikes - https://www.reddit.com/r/spikes/comments/9uoce5/standard_sultai_midrange_discussion/
I decided to try out Thief of Sanity, 25 lands and drop the ugly Squires. I still need the 3rd contempt and 4th Trophy, but here's the list I'm running now:

6 Forest (RIX) 196
2 Vraska's Contempt (XLN) 129
3 Find // Finality (GRN) 225
3 Assassin's Trophy (GRN) 152
3 Ravenous Chupacabra (RIX) 82
4 Merfolk Branchwalker (XLN) 197
4 Overgrown Tomb (GRN) 253
4 Woodland Cemetery (DAR) 248
4 Jadelight Ranger (RIX) 136
3 Wildgrowth Walker (XLN) 216
2 The Mirari Conjecture (DAR) 57
2 Drowned Catacomb (XLN) 253
4 Watery Grave (GRN) 259
3 Hinterland Harbor (DAR) 240
2 Cast Down (DAR) 81
3 Midnight Reaper (GRN) 77
1 Golgari Findbroker (GRN) 175
2 Vivien Reid (M19) 208
1 Swamp (RIX) 194
2 Thief of Sanity (GRN) 205
1 Island (RIX) 193
1 Vraska, Golgari Queen (GRN) 213

The problem is that it's probably even worse against mono red than the previous one. Although the 2 drops didn't help at all, so I'm trying this. I only have 2 Thiefs, so running 2 for now.


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:00 pm 
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I would probably ditch the Mirrari for 3 copies of Thief... that card is bonkers!

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