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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:40 pm 
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I can't get far enough into the game to get muldratha out?

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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:00 am 
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Still work in progress, at the moment at:

Sultai Muldrotha

Creature(23)
3 x Seekers' Squire
4 x Merfolk Branchwalker
4 x Wildgrowth Walker
4 x Jadelight Ranger
3 x Ravenous Chupacabra
1 x Hostage Taker
1 x Carnage Tyrant
2 x Muldrotha, the Gravetide
1 x Izoni, Thousand-Eyed

Instant(4)
3 x Assassin's Trophy
1 x Vraska's Contempt

Enchantment(2)
2 x The Mirari Conjecture

Planeswalker(5)
2 x Vraska, Golgari Queen
2 x Vivien Reid
1 x Vraska, Relic Seeker

Land(23)
1 x Island
1 x Swamp
5 x Forest
3 x Overgrown Tomb
3 x Woodland Cemetery
2 x Golgari Guildgate
2 x Drowned Catacomb
4 x Watery Grave
2 x Hinterland Harbor


Created on Magic Arena Deckbuilder: https://www.magicarenadeckbuilder.com/d ... 01488e7d44

Spoiler


replace the guildgates with duals if you have them. Izoni can also be a 2nd Tyrant, I didn't test her. You have 11 two drops, then Jadelight (6 life with WGW) and 7 removal spells at 4 CMC and at this stage you could also consider playing Assassin's Trophy if needed. At 6 CMC you have 3 wipes (or recursions). Don't worry about wasting spells or putting creatures/walkers you don't need at the moment into the yard, you can easily get them back later with either Muldrotha or Find/Finality or Mirari. The deck is mana intensive, but due to explore you shouldn't be mana starved.

If you really have huge problems with aggro, you might cut Izoni and big Vraska for 2 Ritual of Soot. It kills your early creatures, but you can get them back. Didn't test it, just an idea.

Too bad we don't have Spider Spawning or Ishkanah, Grafwidow. That would take care of those **** fliers :D


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:08 am 
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This is what I have been testing
Muldrota 2.0

Creature(20)
x4 Merfolk Branchwalker
x3 Wildgrowth Walker
x4 Jadelight Ranger
x3 Ravenous Chupacabra
x2 Golgari Findbroker
x1 Hostage Taker
x2 Muldrotha, the Gravetide
x1 Izoni, Thousand-Eyed

Instant(6)
x3 Assassin's Trophy
x3 Vraska's Contempt

Enchantment(3)
x2 The Mirari Conjecture
x1 The Eldest Reborn

Planeswalker(3)
x3 Vraska, Golgari Queen

Land(26)
x1 Island
x6 Forest
x2 Memorial to Folly
x2 Hinterland Harbor
x3 Drowned Catacomb
x4 Watery Grave
x4 Woodland Cemetery
x4 Overgrown Tomb

Created on Magic Arena Deckbuilder: https://www.magicarenadeckbuilder.com/d ... c35c0e744d

its 55% win rate on the ladder so far so not no bad

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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:34 am 
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ok, comparing the lists
I think that Vivien is crucial for every GBx deck, she's just awesome in every aspect.
The Eldest Reborn - I found it too slow and didn't need the discard or revival on top of that I face a lot of go-wide decks where it just sucks
Golgari Findbroker - I don't really like the card, it's slow, it's worse than Muldrotha and has a restrictive mana cost
Find//Finality - absoultely needed as sweeper or recursion (hence no need for Findbroker) and is a sorcery, so can be gotten back by Mirari, you only play instants
WGW - I'm playing all 4 cuz of mono red, mono blue and izzet when I need to race it's always crucial

I can get behind dropping big vraska as I'm not really impressed by her for another Vraska's Contempt, but I don't have it and already used all my WCs :-)

PS. I counter 58 cards in your list, Find//Finality missing?


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:50 am 
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This deck destroys Golgari. My opponent conceded after getting wiped twice, having his PW killed by Contempt and seeing me cast Mirari Conjecture. I still had a few cards in hand and my opponent already had to topdeck ;-)

I think I'll use my next WC for Contempt to replace big Vraska. The instant/sorcery recursion thanks to Mirari is bonkers. Still have to do the double Vraska or Find/Finality cast on Stage III of Mirari :D

Carnage Tyrant is a BEAST against Control. If I had a WC or a 2nd one I'd play it in place of Izoni or big Vraska. I yet have to cast her in the few games I played with her she always sits in hand doing nothing as I either wipe the board or have a million other things to do.


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:55 am 
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The list I'm aiming at for the moment after dozens of games:

Creature(23)
3 x Seekers' Squire
4 x Merfolk Branchwalker
4 x Wildgrowth Walker
4 x Jadelight Ranger
3 x Ravenous Chupacabra
1 x Hostage Taker
2 x Carnage Tyrant
2 x Muldrotha, the Gravetide

Instant(4)
3 x Assassin's Trophy
2 x Vraska's Contempt

Sorceries(3)
3 x Find // Finality

Enchantment(2)
2 x The Mirari Conjecture

Planeswalker(5)
2 x Vraska, Golgari Queen
2 x Vivien Reid

Land(23)
1 x Island
1 x Swamp
5 x Forest
4 x Overgrown Tomb
4 x Woodland Cemetery
2 x Drowned Catacomb
4 x Watery Grave
2 x Hinterland Harbor


I'm missing 1 Tyrant, 1 Contempt, 1 Overgrown Tomb and 1 Woodland Cemetery


Last edited by Auunj on Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:09 pm 
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Ok, Izoni is ****. I'll replace her with another Tyrant asap.


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:47 pm 
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She is not that bad, sac her and bring her back with Muldrotha... but it seems that Tyrant is becoming dominant in the current meta... I just think that all the good stuff the deck has is on the 5-6 CMC and you get punished rather often if you stumble, that’s why I like little Vraska she is perfect diversion, the deck probably needs at least 2 moment of craving or some other form of cheap interaction.

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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:49 pm 
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I bought all the cards, let's test :-)

I don't really agree, playing 11 2drops should ensure that you have something to do. I wouldn't play moment of craving, if I really wanted an early removal I'd go with Cast Down


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:14 pm 
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Hmmm maybe you are right but I have new found love for moment of craving, for biggier threats you always have Chupalupas.

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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:35 pm 
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Auunj wrote:
The list I'm aiming at for the moment after dozens of games:

Creature(23)
3 x Seekers' Squire
4 x Merfolk Branchwalker
4 x Wildgrowth Walker
4 x Jadelight Ranger
3 x Ravenous Chupacabra
1 x Hostage Taker
2 x Carnage Tyrant
2 x Muldrotha, the Gravetide

Instant(4)
3 x Assassin's Trophy
2 x Vraska's Contempt

Enchantment(2)
2 x The Mirari Conjecture

Planeswalker(5)
2 x Vraska, Golgari Queen
2 x Vivien Reid

Land(23)
1 x Island
1 x Swamp
5 x Forest
4 x Overgrown Tomb
4 x Woodland Cemetery
2 x Drowned Catacomb
4 x Watery Grave
2 x Hinterland Harbor


I'm missing 1 Tyrant, 1 Contempt, 1 Overgrown Tomb and 1 Woodland Cemetery


I don't get the conjectures at all. I mean, I get that you can recur them with Muldrotha, but you only have 5 instants and no sorceries. Are they not dead cards at times? Seems like when it works, it would be spectacular, but you need a lot of pieces to come together to make it work.

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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:42 pm 
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The magic arena deck builder screws up importing either sorceries or find//finality. So when you copy the decklist it doesn't show the sorceries/finds.

I actually run 3x Find // Finality in the sorceries slot. This way Mirari makes much more sense.

PS. Updated the list.


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:48 am 
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Dead weight!

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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:03 am 
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23 lands for 3 colours and 4 6-drops may be too few, even with all the explore creatures. I'd probably go to at least 24.
Also, big vraska is just such a bomb and this a the kind of deck she would probably shine in. Too many 6-drops already? Might have to cut a tyrant...

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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:44 am 
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I think the deck needs an additional cast down to have more removal against velocity izzet and maybe THG


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:49 am 
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I chopped Mirari coz... its just not good enough, I also swapped Hostage Taker for Thief of Sanity this is what I´m running
Muldrotha 2.1

Creature(21)
x4 Merfolk Branchwalker
x4 Wildgrowth Walker
x4 Jadelight Ranger
x2 Thief of Sanity
x4 Ravenous Chupacabra
x2 Muldrotha, the Gravetide
x1 Izoni, Thousand-Eyed

Instant(7)
x2 Cast Down
x2 Assassin's Trophy
x3 Vraska's Contempt

Sorcery (2)
x2 Find // Finality

Enchantment(2)
x2 The Eldest Reborn

Planeswalker(2)
x2 Vraska, Golgari Queen

Land(26)
x1 Island
x6 Forest
x2 Memorial to Folly
x2 Hinterland Harbor
x3 Drowned Catacomb
x4 Watery Grave
x4 Woodland Cemetery
x4 Overgrown Tomb

Created on Magic Arena Deckbuilder: https://www.magicarenadeckbuilder.com/d ... cce54c9209

UPDATE: you where right Auunj cast down is the way to go.
deck is running solid on the ladder, Thief os Sanity is such an amazing card! I love her!

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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:56 am 
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I was wondering about dropping WGW and Seeker's Squire and adding Chemister's Insight and some more spells. The early game would be controlled by removal instead of chumps and lifegain. This would mean adding more lands (25 probably) and maybe Ritual of Soot or more walkers.


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:23 pm 
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I've cut Mirari to 1, dropped the Squires, added 3 Cast Down and testing Thief of Sanity x1.

Current list:

1 Vraska, Golgari Queen (GRN) GR8
6 Forest (RIX) 196
2 Vivien Reid (M19) 208
2 Vraska's Contempt (XLN) 129
3 Find // Finality (GRN) 225
3 Assassin's Trophy (GRN) 152
3 Ravenous Chupacabra (RIX) 82
4 Merfolk Branchwalker (XLN) 197
4 Overgrown Tomb (GRN) 253
4 Woodland Cemetery (DAR) 248
4 Jadelight Ranger (RIX) 136
4 Wildgrowth Walker (XLN) 216
2 Carnage Tyrant (XLN) 179
2 Muldrotha, the Gravetide (DAR) 199
1 The Mirari Conjecture (DAR) 57
1 Hostage Taker (XLN) 223
2 Drowned Catacomb (XLN) 253
4 Watery Grave (GRN) 259
2 Hinterland Harbor (DAR) 240
1 Island (RIX) 193
3 Cast Down (DAR) 81
1 Thief of Sanity (GRN) 205
1 Vraska, Relic Seeker (XLN) 232

I kept the Mirari for the grindy games, but sometimes I just wished I had removal instead of the Mirari which is slow as hell.

So the question comes - is it really worth going sultai? Muldrotha is awesome, mirari has value in grindy games hostage taker is either much better than chupa or worse, depends on gamestate. I did't manage to play thief yet.

Switching the list to Golgari I'd probably add 1-2 Reaper, 1 Plaguecrafter, 1 The Eldest Reborn, 1-2 Findbroker (which can be looped with TER)


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:30 am 
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I tried the GB version, I don't like the top-deck mode which isn't present in Sultai. You can always do something with the GY. I'll stick to it for some more time.


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 Post subject: Re: Sultai Brewing
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:42 am 
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Sultai is more fun, but a completely fleshed out well balanced Golgari deck is just better I think. It's not definite proof, but no one in the top 32 of both the GP's last weekend was playing Sultai, and there was lots of pretty good performing Golgari decks. Of course that doesn't mean it's not possible to make it work. What I have seen so far though, is that the Golgari decks running 3-4x Carny + similar amounts of Find // Finality + mana acceleration are pretty neat. On top of that they also have the explore package, some 1-2 off Findbrokers, and usually 2-3x Vivian Reid. In the current meta that just seems to outperform an easily removable Muldrotha.


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