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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:10 am 
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Took nine drafts, but I finally got to try RW Cycling and hit my first 7 wins of the format. Loving how much more engaging player drafts are; haven't felt RW was forceable (despite the many recommendations online) in my previous drafts but it was quite open this time around.

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P1P1 was Yorion followed by P1P2 Naturalist. Took P1P3 Thundermane as a signal and never looked back. Think at least one other drafter hopped into the deck during pack 2 as I didn't wheel any 1 cost cyclers and never saw any Drannith Stingers. The core of two Fox, three Thundermane and two Tacticians was plenty to carry me over the finish line regardless. Thought I'd get to give the 60 card Yorion deck a go, but hopefully I'll get another shot down the line. :V

Fastest win was on the draw game 2 with back to back Flourishing Foxes against an Opp who's first spell was a T4 Gust of Wind. My game 3 Opp had me dead to rights 2-3 turns in a row with four 1/1 solider tokens, four Whisper Squads, and a Bastion of Remembrance on board while I was at 9 life, but they refused to swing. I wouldn't have even had lethal on the crack back, but I guess they were wary of me healing significantly with Drannith Healer while I'd also need to chain multiple cyclers to win with Marmoset. Eventually drew a Thundermane and some cyclers for a health buffer to stabilize the board before they conceded a board that was pretty well at parity. Game 6 Opp had an Inspired Ultimatum to hit my on-curve Yorion, but even five cards and five life weren't enough to stabilize. Game 7 Opp managed a precarious stabilized board for a while with multiple Durable Coilbugs against my Marmosets, but I held a couple cyclers till I drew a Thundermane to clear enough blockers and close out. Got to blast an on-curve Luminous Broodmoth with Shredded Sails in game 1 which felt amazing. :laugh:


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:31 am 
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Good for you :) I P1P1'ed Parcelbeast over Gemrazer (was this the right pick? Draftaholics disagrees), then saw Thundermane P1P2. I suddenly realized all the decks I've been playing are green, so I wanted to try out RW, and when P1P3 contained a Drannith Stinger I tried to semi-force the archetype. Wound up with this pile which is currently 4-0:

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I don't have anything near as synergistic as your pile, but the multiple menace creatures coupled with two menace mentors have been doing work. Marmoset is also a good card especially if it receives a menace counter, and of course Zenith Flare & Thundermane are bombs in this archetype. Thundermane actually killed two of my round 4 Gyuruda opponent's 4/2 flash and Blitz Leech, which was of course insane, although he still managed to stabilize the board with multiple Back for More before Zenith Flare burned him out. I wonder how you would build it? There're a few cards in my sideboard I'm not sure about: Wolverine could be playable for example (especially with Heightened Reflexes) since many of my cyclers are instants & sorceries, and Porcuparrot looks like a generically good card (but one that might be out of place in my deck). With the menace creatures, Tentative Connection might also be a good card. I don't know. What do you think?

Shredded Sails has surprisingly overperformed, it killed a Vulpikeet once (see, this card is bad) and another creature granted flying by the blue mentor, in addition to being a cycler.

@modulo can you explain what you like about the green Mythos? I found it almost unplayable, so I'm curious why you think it's a great card.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:20 am 
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Banedon wrote:
Shredded Sails has surprisingly overperformed, it killed a Vulpikeet once (see, this card is bad)


Removal spell kills creature with flying, therefore flying creature is bad. Sound logic :teach:


Vulpikeet is very medium. Options keep it playable. A 2/3 flyer for 4 isn’t great but it’s not bad. An “aura” that gives +1/+1 and flying (or becomes a 2/3 flyer if target is removed before resolution) for 3 isn’t great but it’s not bad. Options are good. Card is medium.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:14 pm 
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Banedon wrote:
@modulo can you explain what you like about the green Mythos? I found it almost unplayable, so I'm curious why you think it's a great card.


First off, value-driven cards like Regenesis or Soul Salvage really thrive in slow, bomb-driven formats. Ikoria provides such an environment; the format's not quite DOM-level slow, but still on the slow side.
This is what Mythos of Brokkos is for , and that's an okay playable to begin with, though given the amount of recursion in Ikoria, you would cut it from decks that have enough of that. However, once you can pay , you get a tacked-on Entomb. Worst case, this is a Diabolic Tutor that also gives you your best permanent from the yard. Best case, this is a Soul Salvage that also gets a fattie in your yard for Back for More or other shenanigans.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:58 pm 
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Banedon wrote:
There're a few cards in my sideboard I'm not sure about: Wolverine could be playable for example (especially with Heightened Reflexes) since many of my cyclers are instants & sorceries, and Porcuparrot looks like a generically good card (but one that might be out of place in my deck). With the menace creatures, Tentative Connection might also be a good card.
Think I'd want a couple more spells before happily putting Wolverine in. It's reasonably good filler for RW (generally better than something like Perimeter Sergeant), but it mostly shines if you can put a flying mutator on it. Porcuparrot has underperformed a bit IMO, it's not a great body and you need to overcommit to the mutate stack before those pings really matter. Still great with Boot Nipper or Thieving Otter of course. Connection is mostly for the BR sac deck I think but would be more exciting with an extra Go for Blood or two here.
Banedon wrote:
Shredded Sails has surprisingly overperformed
Played a second RW deck earlier and so far I've really liked having at least one. You usually end up with some number of 2 mana cyclers anyway and Sails is a nice maindeckable "sideboard" card that you can usually pick up late.

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Here's my second go at RW, finished 7-2. No Rescuers or Thundermanes this time around, but got a Zenith Flare at least! It was P1P3 after back to back Ram Throughs for my first two picks. Was getting cut a bit in pack 2 so I poked around in green a bit again, but the RW was flowing again in pack 3. Got Triome P3P5ish and Rielle around P3P7. Can't really say if Rielle was worth the splash as it ate removal basically every time I resolved it, but I did get to Cathartic with it once at least. Won my final match (after stalling against three chonkers for a bit with Tactician) with a Flare for 14.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:23 pm 
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@TIMH: I think that would be a fair argument if that card were Murder or something instead of Shredded Sails, but Shredded Sails wouldn't even be maindeckable if it didn't have cycling. Funny thing about Vulpikeet is that Marcio Carvalho actually has it listed as one of the best three white commons (https://article.hareruyamtg.com/article/40447/?lang=en). I don't have much experience drafting white, but my feeling is that if Vulpikeet really is one of the best three white commons, it must be the worst color by a substantial margin.

@modulo hmm, I'd have considered Soul Salvage unplayable if it were 2BB. Green Mythos has a big issue as well, it can only return permanents. If your bomb is Blood Curdle or Eerie Ultimatum for example you're out of luck. I'm not seeing it, would probably pick average playables over Mythos especially if I'm not Sultai, but to each his own :)


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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 12:15 am 
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Shredded sails kills phoenix too, guess Phoenix is bad :(

Sails kills like 95% of the flyers in this set. At uncommon/common only the 1/3 white creature that gets 1/1 counters instead of spell damage and the 3/6 blue creature that enters with flying or hexproof can survive it. Aside from those, only the 4/5 companion and a 6/6 mythic behemoth survive sails. With the logic you’re using the vast majority of flyers this set are bad.

I wouldn’t call it a top 3 uncommon in its color. I think medium - you can apply good early pressure in aggressive decks giving your 1 or 2 drop evasion and better body, there are mutate stacks it’s happy to be a part of (where you’re gaining card value from mutates with triggered removal or graveyard recursion or 3/3 tokens etc and pumping 1/1 each time), and it’s a nice option to stick flying and +1 on a chunker for the beatdown - but it’s floor is very meh. Playable filler, but I think top 3 is bit of a stretch. In a vacuum I’d take the squirrel over it, and there are a few other cards I’d take over either if I’m in a particular archetype. But it’s really not a *bad* card; it’s acceptable.

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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 8:32 am 
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If Phoenix didn't mutate, then it's a 1-for-1 trade. If Phoenix did mutate, then it's coming back so it's not even 1-for-1. And if opponent doesn't have Shredded Sails, Phoenix is 4/4. When the best-case scenario is a 3/4 flyer, and the worst case is getting 2-for-1'ed, Vulpikeet isn't comparable at all. Still can't imagine putting that card in my deck, it's hard for me to even say it's acceptable. But to each his own.

On another note I didn't make changes to the deck above and it went 7-0. Wow. It felt like everything just worked very well. Even Lava Serpent had its moments. One opponent was trying to race me, hitting me down to 4, then I played Lava Serpent and cycled lifelink onto it and I actually ended the game on 21 life. Still, there were some overperformers and underperformers:

Overperformers:

- 1-mana cyclers. Absolutely huge in this deck, they allowed me to trigger Thundermane easily in spite of only having 15 lands.
- Speaking of which, Thundermane overperformed. It shouldn't be surprising, but it was a 2-mana 3-power attacker that ate several creatures for free while gaining life. Absolutely a bomb in this archetype.
- Same goes for Zenith Flare.
- Prickly Marmoset. The last game of the run had my opponent stabilizing the board with Gyuruda, an 8/8 dinosaur, Honey Mammoth, and a 3/3 flyer. I had three Marmosets and attacked with two cycling cards in hand. He could barely block. The card is very threatening, if opponent doesn't block then I don't cycle and do something else; if opponent blocks the first strike is very relevant.

Underperformers:

- Momentum Rumbler. I was expecting more from this card, but it was rather average. Never got it to double strike, and a few times it traded down on mana to Fire Prophecy. Won't say it's bad but I'm somewhat questioning its value since even a 3/3 first strike seems outclassed on the board quite often in this format.
- Checkpoint Officer. It's not a bad card by any means and it's part of the reason I won the game above against the Gyuruda deck, but taking two mana to tap is expensive in a deck already skimping on lands. It's certainly no Law-Rune Enforcer.
- Splendor Mare. Aside from the one time I cycled it for the lifelink I don't think I actually cast this card. It's certainly not a bad card since it can always be cycled, but as a proactive play I would usually prefer to play Marmoset or Mentor at 3 mana, and at 4 mana Tigerilla is significantly more threatening.

I think I can see why Marcio Carvalho was so high on this archetype. The bombs are uncommons. I'll definitely be drafting the deck more.


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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 5:14 am 
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What do you guys make of this?

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Started out with P1P1 Umori over Blood Curdle, thinking "oh another green deck", but then never saw any big green creatures. A very late red mentor in pack 1 gave me pause, and I speculated on Thundermane P2P3. Wound up switching entirely, although I still got a Dire Tactics P3P6 or so (??).

I'm wondering if I can afford to go Mardu. The three black cards in the sideboard are all very powerful and of course being able to cast Memory Leak occasionally should be a good thing; on the other hand my curve is very low and I have to overwhelm my opponents with early creatures, which makes going three colors less appealing.


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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 7:24 am 
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I personally would have strongly considered Curdle over Umori. A full-on creature deck has too little interaction for my tastes, and a 4 mana 4/5 is not even THAT great in this format.

I wouldn't extend the splash. You're really not a go-long deck, have strong cards that you want to cast early and are set up okay on the removal frot with 2 Prophecies and 3 Rockslides.
I'm not sure whether I'd run 1 or 0 Swamps in the deck for Memory Leak (the WB dual is always in), 2 is definitely too many.

100% cut Sanctuary Lockdown, 6 Humans is not enough for that card. After that, I'd cut 2 Perimeter Sergeant, add the Wolverine, adjust the lands (see above) and probably call that a deck.

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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 8:09 am 
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Figured I'd post a 7-1 draft of mine as well:

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The start of the draft was really weird since I got very mixed signals (if I recall correctly it was Lore Drakkis->Thieving Otter->Lore Drakkis->Labyrinth Raptor->Blood Curdle->Parcelbeast). Ultimately, Blue dried up very quickly, and Red continued to be very open. Black also seemed pretty open, even though my final deck actually didn't end up with many blck cards.
Ultimately, I feel like the deck was quite strong and thre's little I'd do different; the most obvious potential change in retrospect is running another Mountain over a Swamp, but it didn't matter much since my fixing overall was very good.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 9:10 am 
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My biggest disappointment so far this season is Savai Thundermane.

Not that the card is disappointing, I'm just disappointed that I haven't been able to utilize it yet. And not for lack of trying. Between draft and sealed I've had 5 RW or RWx cycling decks. One deck even had 2 Thundermanes. It just seems that I either get him T2 and never see a cycle card, or I get him a turn or two later and never have an opportunity to utilize the mana properly.


My greatest joy so far this season is Luminous Broodmoth.

I was gifted one P3p1 in a draft that I was already into BW mutate/gy shenanigans. The card is ridiculous with cards like Serrated Scorpion Bushmeat Poacher and Durable Coilbug as well as Necropanther. And the odd thing about it, even as a 1-of, I saw that card every game I played that deck except for 1. It was like the MTG gods wanted me to be able to enjoy that card. I even had to mulligan the card out of my opening 7 twice, only to draw it within the first few turns.

One of the coolest things to do with Broodmoth is to chump block something with a creature that you've mutated so that you get 2 or 3 flyers to swing with on your turn. A couple of times on a muddy board, I would sac the scorpion to Poacher EoT, then again at beginning of my turn. Draw 2, gain 8, deal 4 for 2 mana is pretty OP. Turning all of your creatures into 2-for-1s, or at the very least, giving every chump blocker a new life is back breaking. Broodmoth also makes Mutual Destruction a much improved removal card

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 11:38 pm 
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P1P1 Premier Draft: Extinction Event or Zenith Flare?


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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 12:35 am 
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Extention Event. It's the stronger card. sure, Zenith Flare is better in a cycle deck, but Event is the better card.


IDK, draft the hard way


It completely wrecks any Gyruda or Obosh decks which are what you will run into once you hit 4 wins.

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 2:13 am 
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That was my thought process as well and I went with Event. RW cycling was then pretty open through pack 1 but, after seeing my neighbor snap their pick in that pack I passed, I knew they'd be pretty locked into RW and I'd be cut pack 2. Ended up hedging towards cycling-based WB, and opened a Nethroi P3P1 to get me back on track for a solid WBg value deck that went 5-3.

I suppose the question is more, is RW cycling still reliably open enough in general that's it's worth passing a stronger card to avoid passing a Flare that puts a neighbor in it?


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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 8:34 am 
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If you pass Zenith Flare at any point, someone in the table is going to draft the cycling deck. I don't think it's a consideration. Sure your neighbour might snap into RW cycling, but you passed the Zenith Flare because you believe that Extinction Event leads to a better deck, which is something I will agree with too because it's just a good card.

That said one of my two RW cycling drafts (I had one in quick draft and the other in premier) went 7-1:

1 x Jegantha, the Wellspring

1 x Heightened Reflexes

1 x Dranith Healer
1 x Valiant Rescuer
2 x Dranith Stinger
2 x Saval Thundermane
1 x Pacifism
1 x Hampering Snare
1 x Ominous Seas
1 x Startling Development
2 x Fire Prophecy

2 x Reptilian Reflection
3 x Prickly Marmoset
1 x Frillscare Mentor
1 x Snare Tactician

1 x Migration Path

2 x Coordinated Charge

1 x Lava Serpent

7 x Plains
8 x Mountain


I think how to draft the cycling deck is pretty obvious at this point, draft the payoffs (the more the better) and the enablers (preferably ~7+) and go to town. The more cycling you have, the fewer lands you can run, although I've been stopping at 15 these past few drafts because I do want to hit three land drops. Zenith Flare is likely the most powerful payoff, but Thundermane isn't too far behind, followed by Marmoset, Reptilian Reflection, and Valiant Rescuer in that order. Dranith Healer & Stinger are great as well, but more because they're bears with cycling-1 than because their effects are strong. For enablers, 1-mana cyclers are significantly more powerful than 2-mana ones, and are high picks. They're especially good with Thundermane since it's mana-intensive, and you don't have too many lands. Random 2-mana cyclers are usually better than non-synergistic cards as well, e.g. Heightened Reflexes in the above list was fairly bad.

And of course if you get to draft Jegantha you should always play it unless you have several other bombs that have multiple color symbols. I had a red Mythos in my pool, didn't utilize it for that reason.

There were several great games in the run, with many tense games. One play I'll post in another thread. Another opponent had what looked like a cycling-only deck - he played cycling card after cycling card - and I was wondering what he was digging for, then he hit me with Ruinous Ultimatum for a 3-for-1. After I rebuilt he kept cycling, then hit me with Zenith Flare for 10. Unfortunately for him my board was strong enough that he died the next turn. The one loss opponent went mutate into mutate into mutate generating tons of value while I didn't have hard removal for the eventual Starrix that entered the battlefield, bringing with it three permanents. gg!


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 6:24 am 
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P1P1'ed Blood Curdle and was passed an Umori in pack 2. Took it as a 4-mana 4/5 that makes my other creatures cheaper, but then kept not getting passed good spells while being passed mutate creatures, and wound up with this. What do you guys think? Only spell that I'd really have wanted to play that I saw the entire draft was Blood Curdle; only pick I made somewhat differently was picking a Duskfang Mentor over Ram Through on pack 3 (which I did because I'd never played with it so I wanted to try it out, plus I had some natural lifelink).

Image

I think I'm seriously lacking power and have too many mutate targets without payoffs, which is unfortunate. I passed Boneyard Lurker to get Umori which was surely the right pick, but this deck would really have liked it if the Lurker had wheeled.

On another note I've yet to draft the UR spells deck, and passed (and was passed) some of the bombs but didn't pick them. I should try that out sometime. I never play against it but if it's open I shouldn't be shy about drafting it.


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 10:53 am 
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Cut the eggs and a mamba. I agree with your thoughts on the deck. Maybe an interesting study on how much having a companion can carry a deck.

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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 5:58 am 
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Deck went 2-3. Three losses were:

- Opponent had Lukka in a board stall and the ultimate hit me for 20 damage.
- Opponent had 3x Ram Through + Blood Curdle in their top 15 or so cards. I kept double-blocking his 4/4 menace and kept getting 2-for-1'ed. Not sure what happened here, since the game should have paused during his beginning of combat step since he had instants. Guess I next-leveled myself.
- Opponent cycled and cycled and cycled with Snare Tactician keeping my biggest creature at bay, and then hit me with Zenith Flare for 13.

Umori was an absolute bomb - a 4-mana 4/5 is already strong, and the mana reduction effect is very powerful. However, the companion restriction is also very harsh. The deck badly needed ways to get through board stalls. The mentors go some way towards doing this, but they're slow, and creatures can be removed. Against the opponent with Lukka for example he had Pacifism for my lifelinkers and although I grew them to 10+ power, I never drew Gemrazer to free them. Meanwhile all it took was one Marmoset to keep my creatures at bay. Like, seriously. One Marmoset. Blitz Leech was fine, but it was not sufficient. Dirge Bat would've been great, but everyone already knew that.

I think if I draft Umori again I'll need 1) big creatures and/or 2) flyers, to go along with lots of mutate "spells". Going for the long game is a tough ask because I can't interact well with opponent, so I must win quickly.

As for individual cards, not much to comment about except Lurking Deadeye underperformed tremendously. I don't know if I was too much from it, but in this deck it's never going to be a 2-for-1, only a 1-for-1 after trading my creature (preferably a small one) for theirs. With a first striker it'd be much better. Or maybe I just have too high expectations, it's a 4/2 flash for 4 which should be playable even if it's not great.

Edit: here's the next draft.

Image

Started with Skycat Sovereign and tried to go into UW flyers. Was passed the White mythos P1P2 but took Pacifism over it, then passed Dreamtail Heron for Jubilant Skybonder P1P3 which must've been a big mistake. But then the UW cards seemed to dry up and I took P2P1 red Mythos over not much. Right around here I stuffed up even more still thinking I was mostly UW instead of taking more red cards. Then P3P1 flipped up Lukka, and then I was passed Lutri, and then I tried to draft UR spells. Like I said I think I stuffed up this draft.

How would you guys salvage it? Cutting all the duplicates and running Lutri as companion seems very easy, then +1 Drannith Healer simply as a 1-mana cycler, not sure if Lutri is worth it though.


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 11:04 am 
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Dead eye works best with those dudrly blockers like Maned Serval, Crystacean. It also works well with something like Durrable Coilbug. It'll rarely be an 0 for 1 and is most often a 1 for 1 in which you are trading up. Usually you want to trade something like a scorpion for something huge of theirs. Or use it when they expected to trade 1 for 1 on double blocking something of yours. Then it's a true 2 for 1.

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