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 Post subject: Re: Nyx Lotus
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:35 pm 
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Playing a bunch of cards which are still decent if played on curve, drawing your deck, playing playable win cons. At least, if the deck will ever be truly good.


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 Post subject: Re: Nyx Lotus
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:22 pm 
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Ya, use all that extra mana to power through your deck drawing a metric s*** ton of cards and winning with Thassa's Oracle or a mass manip that steals opps entire board. Feels like a better than normal combo deck cause you draw so many cards to find the pieces you need to win - like you Gadwick for a dozen and likely hit a Corridor Monitor that untaps lotus and play another Gadwick for a dozen and repeat the loop until you Oracle the rest of your deck and win. You get these turns that feel like a pseudo Nexus of Fate, and you just keep untapping lotus with a oversized grip. Biggest thing is getting that lotus down.

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 Post subject: Re: Nyx Lotus
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:57 pm 
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Can it be built without Corridor Monitor?


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 Post subject: Re: Nyx Lotus
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:22 pm 
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Yes. In pioneer.

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 Post subject: Re: Nyx Lotus
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:50 pm 
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One of the lists Chuco posted on first page didn’t have it, but I doubt it was as good as lists with it (versions I’ve seen in action run them). It’s not the worst thing you could play, as a 1/4 T2 helps survive aggro. The list Chuco posted without it ran Fblthp instead - but that seems worse to me, as you really want the extra untap effect to go off.

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 Post subject: Re: Nyx Lotus
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:15 pm 
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Just trying to avoid really bad cards, if at all possible. The floor on that one is really bad. It’s only good off curve, and when you’re winning already.


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 Post subject: Re: Nyx Lotus
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:55 pm 
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I mean, it’s good to survive initial rush from aggressive decks so you can get your pieces on line to combo off, but I hear you. I suspect it’s too important to leave out with what we have in standard for untap options. It’s not a threatening piece on curve, but you dgaf about threatening in the early game with this deck, it’s more about survival - 4 butt or borrower bounce are acceptable T2 plays here imo.

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 Post subject: Re: Nyx Lotus
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:58 pm 
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I'm always going to be surprised when a 1/4 becomes playable, unless it has text which basically states you win the game. It's not a 'never' kind of thing, but it is pretty rare.

That said, even if it is playable in this deck, at a competitive level of play, it's still going to be a weak point. You wouldn't want to see more than one in your opening hand - at least not outside of corner cases, or magical Christmas land scenarios.


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 Post subject: Re: Nyx Lotus
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:45 pm 
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True, but you were pretty surprised about oven and cat being a real thing when in fact it is. 1/4s block Nissa’s 3/3s, which is a big deal right now. That said I don’t like this decks chances against simic flash. Tough to get through their counter wall to cast a 4 mana artifact that’s essential to your strategy.

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 Post subject: Re: Nyx Lotus
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:57 pm 
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DJ0045 wrote:
I'm always going to be surprised when a 1/4 becomes playable, unless it has text which basically states you win the game. It's not a 'never' kind of thing, but it is pretty rare.

That said, even if it is playable in this deck, at a competitive level of play, it's still going to be a weak point. You wouldn't want to see more than one in your opening hand - at least not outside of corner cases, or magical Christmas land scenarios.

You got 8 untap effects in the deck and you probably want to go off on turn 5, I wonder if the self mill approach could be more consistent.

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Last edited by Cucho Lambreta on Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Nyx Lotus
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:07 pm 
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True, but you are still pretty surprised about oven and cat being a real thing when in fact it is. 1/4s block Nissa’s 3/3s, which is a big deal right now. That said I don’t like this decks chances against simic flash. Tough to get through their counter wall to cast a 4 mana artifact that’s essential to your strategy.


Fixed - although, the deck I was watching looked terrible compared to some of the decks I'm finding that actually did well with that combo in them. Part of my disbelief had to do with the terrible-looking deck the Oven/Cat happened to be in this time.

example: I'd like it a lot better with Midnight Reaper and Murderous Rider in the deck, amongst a number of other obvious choices you might not run in a bad mono-black devotion build.


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 Post subject: Re: Nyx Lotus
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:40 pm 
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Lol I see what you did there

Here’s the Jund version that won mythic championship (beating simic flash):
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HC21wRnSxY4&t=1430s

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 Post subject: Re: Nyx Lotus
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:49 pm 
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Speaking of mono-black devotion. Can it run Underworld Dreams in the sideboard? Because that would be hilarious against this deck.


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 Post subject: Re: Nyx Lotus
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:59 pm 
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Deck
4 Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner (WAR) 232
3 Leyline of Anticipation (M20) 64
4 Gadwick, the Wizened (ELD) 48
4 Brazen Borrower (ELD) 39
1 Fae of Wishes (ELD) 44
2 Cavalier of Gales (M20) 52
3 Nyx Lotus (THB) 235
4 Thassa's Oracle (THB) 73
3 Thassa, Deep-Dwelling (THB) 71
4 Corridor Monitor (ELD) 41
3 Castle Vantress (ELD) 242
16 Island (ANA) 57
3 Fabled Passage (ELD) 244
2 Mystic Sanctuary (ELD) 247
4 Drowned Secrets (GRN) 39

Sideboard
1 Unsummon (M20) 78
1 Sorcerous Spyglass (XLN) 248
1 Grafdigger's Cage (M20) 227
1 Mass Manipulation (RNA) 42
1 Selective Snare (GRN) 53
1 Finale of Revelation (WAR) 51
1 Sinister Sabotage (GRN) 54
1 Mystical Dispute (ELD) 58
1 Negate (M20) 69
1 Kasmina's Transmutation (WAR) 57
1 Disdainful Stroke (GRN) 37
1 Aether Gust (M20) 42
1 Ugin, the Ineffable (WAR) 2
1 Whirlwind Denial (THB) 81

I took CGBs pile and add the Drowned secrets... I´m lacking some Mythics for the cavaliers... but the deck can go off rather consistently

The Escape draw spell could be huge here.... HMMM
gonna test it!

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 Post subject: Re: Nyx Lotus
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:25 pm 
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Is leyline just for simic flash matchups? Seems essential for those, but sooo slow if not in opening hand. Does it offer enough to justify in other matchups?

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 Post subject: Re: Nyx Lotus
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:39 pm 
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Is leyline just for simic flash matchups? Seems essential for those, but sooo slow if not in opening hand. Does it offer enough to justify in other matchups?

It really changes the way the deck is played IMO... but maybe you are right, probably gonna chop them once I get the Cavaliers play set and Thassa.

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 Post subject: Re: Nyx Lotus
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:57 am 
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Ya, playing at instant speed is nice and opens up more options with Thassa blinking Monitor. Excellent if in opening hand. Just puts you in a weird position of wanting a playset to increase opening hand odds but not wanting a playset cause you don’t want 2. And it feels pretty bad if not in opening hand, as you need to be casting lotus or digging for it in the T4-5 range, not tapping out for leyline. Once lotus is down you want to be comboing off, and playing at instant speed is less relevant. Very awkward if not in opening hand. Watched CGBs video and that stood out to me - but it was a limited sampling, so that’s why I was asking.

Does seem necessary if playing simic flash - you need to play at instant speed if you’re going to resolve lotus vs them. So at a minimum I’d think it needs to be sideboard tool if this deck is to become viable in competitive play. Just not sure it’s correct in the main board.

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 Post subject: Re: Nyx Lotus
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:18 pm 
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My impression is that leylines are borderline obvious inclusions.

1) Doing this combo at instant speed has a lot of advantages, for example you can time it at the end of your opponents turn, and if they can interrupt you, you can go off on your own turn unhindered. Basically, you’re just waiting for your opponent to give you an opening, and leylines give you more options.
2) Having 2 mana symbols on your affinity count at turn 0 is also useful, as you really want some extra certainty you won’t fizzle out when you try to go off. That first activation of Lotus needs to be big enough to go off, and the rest of your early drops can’t guarantee that happens.
3) Even if you get it later 1 and 2 are still valid.

Having extra copies doesn’t particularly hurt you as 2, at minimum, will continue to stack to your advantage.

Right now you guys are trying this deck against pretty weak opposition, but against decks that are more serious I think leylines are likely to increase rather than decrease in value.

I think I’d run 3 or 4 copies in the main board, and only side them out vs. aggro.


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 Post subject: Re: Nyx Lotus
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:17 pm 
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Yeah Leylines lets you spend the Lotus mana when you flicker your Corridor monitors on your endstep, it can be huge.
Latest iteration.

Deck
4 Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner (WAR) 232
3 Leyline of Anticipation (M20) 64
4 Gadwick, the Wizened (ELD) 48
2 Arcanist's Owl (ELD) 206
2 Cavalier of Gales (M20) 52
3 Nyx Lotus (THB) 235
4 Thassa's Oracle (THB) 73
3 Thassa, Deep-Dwelling (THB) 71
4 Corridor Monitor (ELD) 41
3 Castle Vantress (ELD) 242
18 Island (ANA) 57
3 Fabled Passage (ELD) 244
4 Drowned Secrets (GRN) 39
1 Glimpse of Freedom (THB) 50
2 Brazen Borrower (ELD) 39
---
So Owl is much better if you got Drowned Secrets and I think at least a couple of those cards should be in the deck, so I´m testing two and I think its the right number.
ImageImageImageImage

Also the 3 creatures works great with Thassa´s Flicker effect
Image

I think Cavaliers needs to be at least 3... so just wating for another Mythic Wild Card to make the change, Borrowers are the soft spot ATM.

last but not least .... this two cards are one nice little combo after a sweeper, just remember to hold your Thassa Oracle for the win.
ImageImage

and Yeah Thassas Oracle is the wincon
Image

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 Post subject: Re: Nyx Lotus
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:32 pm 
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I have played this deck a bit. It has potential, but it has some real weaknesses. Counters can be tough, but I have won vs Simic Flash, although it may have been luck on my part/bad draw on theirs or just not a great player. The biggest issue is that the deck mainly revolves around Nyx, and if that is removed, the deck is much weaker. It does not fall apart though. I have won several games with T4 Cavilier off Kiora, especially if followed up with Thassa. IMO, if this deck gets bigger, you may see more artifact hate. You already see some because of Embercleave and Oven, so if this deck is up their with them, even more people will maindeck more hate, which will severely hurt this deck.

I have really thought about splashing White for Teferi. I also tried the colorless land that lets you play at instant speed for 1 mana and sacing it (Escape something?), but TBH, it didn't have the impact I wanted.

Maybe the deck needs to go more hardcore protecting the combo, or less hard core and expand the paths to victory.

Corridor monitor is decent in the deck....but just to combo or buy time. I actually upped the Fae count to have more 1/4s to buy more time, although to be fair Fae is a much better card.

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