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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:00 am 
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It's strange how decks perform in relation to (my) expectations..

What would you have expected for this pile?

Image

It went much better than 0-3. I didn't think much of it for I didn't have enough cards to make it truly aggressive with a low curve. But still I was kind of forced into Wizards. It would've gone 7-2 if the last game hadn't ended like this:

Image

I think I'd have won this ~5 turns before this moment if I had drawn anything.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:31 am 
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I think you hit the right side of variance to be honest. The deck isn't bad enough to go 0-3, but it's not great either: for example you're forced to run Deep Freeze with most of your creatures attacking on the ground. A simple 2/2 blocks virtually everything in your deck except Adeliz and some 5-drops as well. Still, with such a low curve and some powerful synergies, I can see this deck averaging about 4 wins, maybe 5 (especially since some opponents aren't very good).

RIP Lyra...


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:14 am 
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I'm out for the day... holy f***ng RNG crap.. such a nice deck to go 0-3 to a match with 3 total lands and one with 2. And that after following Modulo's 18 land advice for the first time.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:49 am 
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I played an 18 land deck. Mulled a 2 lander with the wrong colours into a 4 lander with a 7-drop and a 3 drop, then drew 10 consecutive lands.
I dropped my 7 drop on the curve, but by then opponent hand a hand full of removal and it didn't survive until the next turn.
RNG happens... I think I'll avoid 18 lands like the plague next time.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:22 pm 
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Banedon wrote:
modulo deck fix please :) I drafted this deck, am not sure about the last cards.

2 Sparring Construct
2 Knight of New Benalia - drafted these quite highly because they're knights
1 Caligo Skin Witch
1 Gideon's Reproach
2 Vicious Offering
1 Jousting Lance
1 Sergeant at Arms
2 Deathbloom Thallid
1 Dub - makes a knight
1 Soul Salvage
1 Aryel, Knight of Windgrace - hence all the knights
1 Aven Sentry
1 Call the Cavalry - more knights
1 Dark Bargain
1 Eviscerate
1 Settle the Score
1 Excavation Elephant
2 Windgrace Acolyte

1 Memorial to Folly
8 Swamp
8 Plains

Cards in sideboard not used: Healing Grace, Bloodtallow Candle, Blessing of Belzenok, Divest, Demonic Vigor, Drudge Sentinel, Sorcerer's Wand

I'd prefer not to run the Sparring Constructs & Excavation Elephant, but they seem like the best of the bad options. Blessing of Belzenok has only one legendary creature target, Divest of course has its own problems, Demonic Vigor is an aura (just like Dub I suppose, but at least that makes a knight). The other cards are just not very good. My main concern is that I have Soul Salvage with only 13 creatures, which means it could be dead quite often. On the other hand Aryel is a powerful bomb that'll be huge if recurred, and Dark Bargain / Windgrace Acolyte can help fill the graveyard too. If I don't run Soul Salvage, I could run Bloodtallow Candle, which would also work with Excavation Elephant. Think there's anything I should change?

EDIT: got impatient and decided to submit as is without waiting for modulo's fixes. Currently (I think) 5-2, both losses coming from some mana stumbles early. Perhaps two-landers on the play really aren't keepable even with two 2-mana spells in hand. Of note, Knight of Grace and Knight of Malice wipe me out; I can't block them and the only thing I can do is hit them with some premium removal spells (Vicious Offering / Gideon's Reproach). It's ironic that the Sparring Constructs have generally been poor (even with Excavation Elephant bringing one of them back), but with one of these I can actually block the knights with a 2/3 Sergeant at Arms. Arvel is strong as hell and won me some matches single-handedly; Caligo-Skin Witch has had the misfortune to always be drawn when my opponent is already hellbent ...


I think I'd cut one Sparring Construct for the Candle, which is pretty much the best thing in your deck to recur with Excavation Elephant. The other cards I'm not in love with in your deck are Sparring Construct and Dub, but I can see why you'd want Dub (t2 Knight t3 Dub demands an answer quickly) and if you choose to run Dub Construct is better than Divest.
Soul Salvange is totally fine with 12 creatures and given the two Windgrace Acolytes might be fine with 11. I would not go lower, though.
You could run 18 lands, but 17 seems reasonable enough.

Other than that, deck looks good, 5-2 seems like a fair record so far. The two losses to mana problems are unfortunate, but I think you should keep 2-landers with two 2-mana spells in hand (except maybe if one of them is exactly Gideon's Reproach, because that is only a turn 2 play on the draw).

@Sol: The Izzet Wizards deck looks totally fine to me aside from maybe the three Deep Freeze which do feel out of place indeed (I'd be more than happy to cut 1 or 2). Good overall power level, nice amount of spells to go with Lavarunner and Adeliz, and while you have a few stinkers in there none of them are actively terrible.

@Haven: Sorry to hear about the flood; bad beats. Happens to the best of us with 15-landers.

Speaking of decks that perform differently from what I expected: Over the weekend I had two B/G drafts one after another, both went 4-3. The difference? Deck 1 had no removal (I ran a Pierce the Sky mainboard to have _something_ to accompany my otherwise sole Ancient Animus), had no payoff for the archetype (2 Saproling Migration, 2 Sapherds, Llanowar Elves, no Song/Wild Onslaught/Slimefoot/Sporecrown Thallid/Thallid Soothsayer; my best payoff was 1 Thallid Omnivore), and pretty bad power level (my probably best card in the deck was a Dread Shade and I had to do things like mainboard Primordial Wurm and splash for On Serra's Wings to even make playables).
The other deck was much better; still fairly short (but okay) on removal (1 Eviscerate plus several Ancient Animus and a In Bolas' Clutches off the splash (yes, with 2 Grow from the Ashes and a Llanowar Envoy that works)), a much more cohesive gameplan (including Whisper, Blood Liturgist and Thallid Soothsayer), better cad quality... but then I got rushed down by decks that would die to Vicious Offering, which I saw 0 of in either draft.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:28 pm 
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I decided not to play the Bloodtallow Candle remembering my earlier mana issues + the fact I need them to block the Knights, then promptly flood lol. The Sparring Construct was still good though since it ate a Broken Bond so I'm not complaining, especially since I won the remaining two games for 7-2.

Dub's in the deck because the enchanted creature becomes a knight, which synergizes with Arvel. It only mattered once in the entire run though. Also the generic +2/+2 with first strike was quite potent if unanswered. I don't think I got 2-for-1'ed by Dub at all during the run, although it did win me the game once (put it on Windgrace Acolyte and there're precious few non-removal ways to deal with it).

On to the next run, and lol, I open Arvel again P1P1! Drafting that one later.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:18 pm 
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I'm a 2-3 machine in Dominaria.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:33 pm 
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divinevert wrote:
I'm a 2-3 machine in Dominaria.


Magic's a simple game, 2 people take turns playing cards and in the end Divinevert goes 2-3...

Sorry, couldn't resist :D


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:03 pm 
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ok so I drafted this... and I´m burned out for today... I this needs 10 cuts... help would be appreciated :D

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Last edited by Cucho Lambreta on Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:28 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:29 pm 
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Banedon wrote:
divinevert wrote:
I'm a 2-3 machine in Dominaria.


Magic's a simple game, 2 people take turns playing cards and in the end Divinevert goes 2-3...

Sorry, couldn't resist :D


It's all good. It's just weird trying to reverse engineer a set I missed the release of.

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viewtopic.php?f=38&t=16077

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:39 am 
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Banedon wrote:
I think you hit the right side of variance to be honest. The deck isn't bad enough to go 0-3, but it's not great either: for example you're forced to run Deep Freeze with most of your creatures attacking on the ground. A simple 2/2 blocks virtually everything in your deck except Adeliz and some 5-drops as well. Still, with such a low curve and some powerful synergies, I can see this deck averaging about 4 wins, maybe 5 (especially since some opponents aren't very good).

RIP Lyra...


Modulo wrote:
@Sol: The Izzet Wizards deck looks totally fine to me aside from maybe the three Deep Freeze which do feel out of place indeed (I'd be more than happy to cut 1 or 2). Good overall power level, nice amount of spells to go with Lavarunner and Adeliz, and while you have a few stinkers in there none of them are actively terrible.


Oh well, I never expect a positive win record these days :roll:
Unless I have multiple bombs - but then I just lose anyway. Last deck had 4 Sphinxes and Urgoros. And no, it didn't lack an early game - I just didn't survive on 2 or 3 mana for so many turns >:(

But I rather want to talk about the Wizard deck. My reasoning for not being too happy was, that I had to play so many high cmc cards because I didn't have enough low cmc Wizards. I may be spoiled by my constructed Merfolk deck in that regard. This Wizard deck only became a Wizard deck somewhere in P3 when I was deep into blue with some red removal and got Adeliz passed. Following her I picked up a common Wizard with almost every pick to end up with what you've seen.
Originally I tried to cut the Sphinxes for curve reasons, they don't fit the aggressive game plan, but I couldn't justify running Befuddle over them. Of that I had at least 4 copies. Would you run that over anything in the deck? The rest of my cards were probably in other colors. Deep Freeze - like the Sphinxes - were early picks and while I like the card, I see how it's detrimental in this deck. But rather that than.. Befuddle :D

The true MVP of the deck was Fight with Fire, my P1P1. Kicking it is game-winning. I just have to learn to never, ever waste it before 9 mana. Almost lost a game to that. Used it to remove a blocker so that I would swing for lethal the turn after that - but the turn after that there was a named Baneslayer Angel staring at me. Luckily I was able to finish it several rounds later, long after I had the 9 mana to just burn the opponent. Lesson learnt.

@Cucho: Given that you have some of the very best cards (Verix, Siege-Gang), I would go for the odd slow UR deck. 18 lands, no combat tricks, some early creatures that can block (1/3 > 2/2). From T3 onwards you should be good with Deep Freezes and expect to win when you resolve your kicked Verix. If you fail to draw him, I hope you can close the game on the ground with all the removal/bounce.

@Banedon: Please use (deck)(/deck) around your decks :)


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:03 am 
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It's too late to switch to the Wizards deck in pack 3 in my opinion - that deck needs synergies to function. You were probably very lucky to be able to keep drafting wizards. As for Befuddle, I think it is barely playable, but you could still run it over a Deep Freeze since as mentioned that card stonewalls your attackers.

As for Fight with Fire: I think the card plays like a premium removal spell. If you need it to answer a bomb (like Lyra) or to force through a lot of damage, by all means do so. For example in my 7-win Aryel run, at one point, my opponent only had a Howling Golem in play with one card in hand (which was probably a land too). I had 7 power. If I cast Settle the Score on the golem, I attack for 7 and bring him to 9. If I don't cast Settle the Score, I hit for only three (with my Windgrace Acolyte). Do I cast Settle or not? I decided to do it, although in retrospect it was a bit aggressive since I don't threaten lethal the next turn, and he would have two draws. But he bricked so ... waiting to cast Fight with Fire with kicker is probably too long. That's 10 mana, by which point many games would already have resolved. Part of the strength of Fight with Fire is that it's a 5-damage spell for 3 mana.

@Chuco I'd probably cut Fervent Strike, Frenzied Rage, Sorcerer's Wand, Relic Runner, Weight of Memory and probably some Academy Journeymages since high curve, but idk. Would go to 18 lands though, maybe even 19, since your deck has awesome power level.

Also let me know how you would build this pile:

1 mana
2 Ghitu Lavarunner
1 Demonic Vigor
3 Fervent Strike
1 Fungal Infection

2 mana
1 Caligo Skin-Witch
1 Knight of Malice
1 Bloodstone Goblin
1 Keldon Warcaller
1 The Flame of Keld
1 Run Amok
1 Ghitu Chronicler
1 Frenzied Rage

3 mana
2 Keldon Overseer
1 Goblin Warchief
1 Soul Salvage
2 Fight with Fire (!!)
2 Wizard's Lightning

4 mana
1 Thallid Soothsayer
2 Eviscerate
1 Rampaging Cyclops
1 Radiating Lightning
2 Seismic Shift

5 mana
1 Windgrace Acolyte
2 Fire Elemental
1 Jaya Ballard
2 Fiery Intervention
1 Tiana, Ship's Caretaker

6 mana
1 Feral Abomination
1 Pardic Wanderer

I can't decide if I want to run lots of lands to kick Fight with Fire. Ghitu Chronicler and Keldon Overseer (+discard them to Jaya Ballard if need be), or use a low curve and try to kill people with the Lavarunners and combat tricks. The first option seems slightly better, but I don't have 22 playables that match the plan, and I'd be forced to run cards like Lavarunner whose only job would be to trigger Wizard's Lightning. What do you think?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:34 am 
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Banedon wrote:
It's too late to switch to the Wizards deck in pack 3 in my opinion - that deck needs synergies to function. You were probably very lucky to be able to keep drafting wizards. As for Befuddle, I think it is barely playable, but you could still run it over a Deep Freeze since as mentioned that card stonewalls your attackers.


Well yes, or unlucky to not get cards for the original plan - probably UG with a red splash, don't remember exactly.

Quote:


I'd go like this and probably fill it with combat tricks. 17 lands. Pretty much the definition of midrange: neither fast nor do you have bombs. I wouldn't try to win a lategame with those garbage 5- and 6-drops. But let's see what the pros say ;)

edit: Thinking about it, there might be a valid argument for 18 lands. You don't have great cards to add and 9 mana can win you any game through Fight with Fire.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:40 am 
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divinevert wrote:
Banedon wrote:
divinevert wrote:
I'm a 2-3 machine in Dominaria.


Magic's a simple game, 2 people take turns playing cards and in the end Divinevert goes 2-3...

Sorry, couldn't resist :D


It's all good. It's just weird trying to reverse engineer a set I missed the release of.


My last 2 drafts went 2-3 as well. My last game was just painful as my opponent dropped 1 creature and just piled on the auras until I was dead (T5 irc).

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:47 pm 
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Look at this beautiful selection:

Image

Now what do I do?

Do I splash red for the 2 Grand Warlord Radha and Shivan Fire? I think the deck is really powerful without it, but more is more, right?

Do I keep the Saproling subtheme?

My first cuts would be 1 Arcane Flight (nice as a 1-of for the turtle, but beyond that..?), Wild Onslaught (not gonna flood the board) and Tolarian Scholar (worst creature).

edit: my cut:

Image

Really not sure about the omission of Fungal Plots ;)

Also, I tend to always cut Opt, is that a good move? Do you rank it better or worse than Adventurous Impulse?


Last edited by Sol77_bla on Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:59 pm 
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@Banedon this is what I would run with those cards, the low curve seemed interesting so I gave that a try and I think the deck is good.

2 Lava runners
1 Caligo Skin-Witch
1 Knight of Malice
1 Ghitu Chronicler
2 Keldon Overseer
1 Bloodstone Goblin
1 Thallid Soothsayer
1 Rampaging Cyclops
2 Fire Elemental
1 Pardic Wanderer

1 Jaya Ballard

1 Soul Salvage
2 Eviscerate
2 Fight with Fire
2 Wizard's Lightning

Tricks
2 Fervent Strike
1 Run Amok

+16 lands

I would love to run Tiana, but I dunno if you can work the mana for the splash.
Jaya + FWF is amazing, and Jaya alone is great you got lots of spells and you can throw creatures in the GY and get them back with soul savage later, I like the old lady and I might be overestimating her but with 2 fight with fire she is worth it.
Fervent strike + Keldon Overseer is removal in my book, besides fervent strike on a 2/2 helps you deal with those annoying 1/3 or 2/3 that stall boards for aggro without the need of using precious removal on them.
The Lava runners are mediocre but arguably they can work better than War Caller or Warchief in your deck coz you got a high density of spells to activate them, they enable Wizards lightning and you can sac them with Soothsayer for value when they become useless.
The amount of removal is awesome as is by far the biggest upside of the deck, Fiery Intervention does not make the cut in this scenario and they push the curve to high I have never liked that spell in DOM and given the quality of removal you got I would cut them without looking back.
-Chronicler is a 6cmc spell in this deck-
I think the deck can be tunned for a good run
GOOD LUCK!
PS Thanks for the input on my pile guys :D

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:03 pm 
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Sol77_bla wrote:
Look at this beautiful selection:

Image

Now what do I do?

Do I splash red for the 2 Grand Warlord Radha and Shivan Fire? I think the deck is really powerful without it, but more is more, right?

Do I keep the Saproling subtheme?

My first cuts would be 1 Arcane Flight (nice as a 1-of for the turtle, but beyond that..?), Wild Onslaught (not gonna flood the board) and Tolarian Scholar (worst creature).


With 2 grow from ashes you must splash!
I rather have Scholar over Envoy any day
Arcane Flight on Multani or Gorger sounds good to me too

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:26 pm 
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ok so I drafted this... and I´m burned out for today... I this needs 10 cuts... help would be appreciated :D



Let's get to it.
Easy cuts:
-2 Frenzied Rage. IMO this card is only playable with Champion of the Flame and Valduk, Keeper of the Flame, or if your deck is hyper-aggressive (which you aren't)
-1 Rampaging Cyclops. You hve a glut of 4s, this is your worst one by quite a bit.

Slightly tougher:
-2 Fervent Strike. I like how this is your cheapest combat trick (great with Adeliz and potentially Naru Meha), but 3 of these is definitely too many. I believe 1 is the correct number here, could see keeping a second one though.
-1 Deep Freeze. I don't like Deep Freeze much in a Wizard deck, but you're slightly short on 3s. I think we can get away cutting one
-1 Weight of Memory. Between 2 Divination and 2 Keldon Raider you have enough carddraw in the deck, and you have enough ways to use your mana efficiently that I think you can cut this clunky draw spell.
-2 Fiery Intervention. I like myself some removal, but 3 of these could easily get too clunky, especially with the Goblin Barrage in the same deck. Similar as with Fervent Strike, I could see keeping a second one.
-1 Sorcerer's Wand. Last cut and it's a tough one. In a nutshell, Wand would be better than quite some of the cards in your deck. However, all of these cards serve niches that need to be filled (Relic Runner and Bloodstone Goblin are required as 2-drops given you have no early removal, Fervent Strike and Deep Freeze I already talked about). In the end, despite your deck being okay with running Wand, I think your other cards are either a lot better or are required more dearly.


Banedon wrote:


Fixed that for you.

I actually think this deck has definitely enough playables for plan 1 and, on the contrary, is not aggressive enough to make the pump spell plan work. Picture something like this:

Code:
[deck]
2 Ghitu Lavarunner
1 Fungal Infection

1 Caligo Skin-Witch
1 Knight of Malice
1 Bloodstone Goblin
1 Ghitu Chronicler

2 Keldon Overseer
1 Soul Salvage
2 Fight with Fire
2 Wizard's Lightning

1 Thallid Soothsayer
1 Rampaging Cyclops
2 Eviscerate

1 Windgrace Acolyte
1 Fire Elemental
1 Jaya Ballard
1 Fiery Intervention

10 Mountain
8 Swamp
[/deck]


which, in forum, looks like this:

2 x Ghitu Lavarunner
1 x Fungal Infection

1 x Caligo Skin-Witch
1 x Knight of Malice
1 x Bloodstone Goblin
1 x Ghitu Chronicler

2 x Keldon Overseer
1 x Soul Salvage
2 x Fight with Fire
2 x Wizard's Lightning

1 x Thallid Soothsayer
1 x Rampaging Cyclops
2 x Eviscerate

1 x Windgrace Acolyte
1 x Fire Elemental
1 x Jaya Ballard
1 x Fiery Intervention

10 x Mountain
8 x Swamp


What I see is a very solid, value-oriented midrange deck (Lavarunners are in mostly because the make Wizard's Lightning cheaper and are better topdecks late than Keldon Warcaller).
The Tiana splash is not an option ever; you don't have the auras/equipment to make her more than a 3/3 flying first strike, and Jaya (who fits your deck much better) needs manabase support (plus you don't have any fixing).


@Sol:
The deck definitely wants 18 lands, you have tons of manasinks (Helm of the Host!!) and want to guarantee reaching 6 lands ASAP for Multani/Clutches.
I'd cut Tolarian Scholar, two Llanowar Envoy (the third might be nice to make the red splash easier), Wild Onslaught, one Arcane Flight and either of Opt, Adventurous Impulse or Fungal Plots.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:06 pm 
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Thank you guys. Competition is rough right now. I expected to breeze through games but that isn't happening. I can lose to a single card: Game 1 it was Icy Manipulator. Luckily I drew In Bolas's Clutches to take it away and win the game. Next game it was Serra Angel and I buried my saving grace (In Bolas's Clutches again) with Adventurous Impulse.

Switching Adventurous Impulse out now for Opt. Also -1 Envoy +1 Scholar and will report back. 2-1 as of now.

By the way, how do I get an X spell back into my hand when I don't want to cast it? That almost cost me game 3 when I Syncopate'd his bluff spell on his last turn. Neither Z nor Y (euro config for Z) does that.

edit: 2-2.. this is so ridiculous :takei:

Played Helm for the third time to not equip it for the third time.

edit 2: 5-3 overall.. two breeze wins and a disgusting case of color screw. Lost after discarding twice in a row due to a full hand.

Now what do we take from this? Simic Ramp is not as strong as it looks? It appears to need more removal. Also f** those "unplayable" artifact hate cards, I didn't get a single Helm token in the entire run.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:52 pm 
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Well a problem with your deck is that you barely have removal: just one Shivan Fire and one In Bolas's Clutches, maaaaybe Blink of an Eye. They're good cards, but they're still only three cards. You can't play from behind with only three removal. I'd probably cut down on the red splash (at most just keep the Shivan Fire), both Arcane Flights, Wild Onslaught, and play all the early creatures. As long as you survive early, your late-game bombs will win the game - not many decks can answer Multani & Helm of the Host.

@modulo - why the Thallid Soothsayer without much to sacrifice (just the Caligo Skin Witch, Chronicler & two Lavarunners)? Rampaging Cyclops without combat tricks seems quite subpar, and I'm also surprised at not using either 6-drop if going for plan A.

I'm impressed Chucho's cutting Fiery Intervention. I'll start with that build and if it flunks, switch to modulo's :)


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