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 Post subject: Re: Off Topic Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:02 pm 
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Freedom of speech is both a legal and philosophical concept. Saying something doesn’t match the legal definition doesn’t end the philosophical arguments. I think it’s problematic for a social media company to ban a sitting president (or any world leader for that matter). This precedence opens up a can of worms that will be interesting to see play out. Within days it already has had an impact with the Ugandan election.

I think the nature of social media creates challenges for our legal understanding of freedom of speech. Similar to how the Founders couldn’t have envisioned nuclear weapons when they wrote the 2nd amendment, they couldn’t have envisioned the internet and how it would transform social interaction. These platforms are the new town squares. They’re privately owned, but they function as our new public squares. Now private unelected unaccountable citizens have immense power over who is able to participate in the public conversation. That should cause concern for everyone. The left is in large numbers happy about these actions and ironically adopting the AnCap ‘They’re privately owned, they can do whatever they want’ argument right now cause targets are largely their ideological opponents, but that’s tragically short sighted imo. Cultural winds change. Even the ACLU (who basically have abandoned 1st amendment defense in recent years) realizes this and issued a statement of warning.

I don’t know what the correct answers are, but I’m pretty confident it’s not “this is fine”

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 Post subject: Re: Off Topic Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:14 pm 
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i'll toss you


Yeah right, you only toss salad

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 Post subject: Re: Off Topic Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:28 pm 
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I will paraphrase what I said to a Republican friend of mine:

This is not about Free Speech, it's about a business decision, and a bad one at that. Twitter's decision is absolutely fine (although poorly thought out), but I will not be surprised if it results in distrust of their platform and creates opportunities for competitors to enter the market. If I were sitting in their boardroom when the decision was made, I would have told them of their grave error, and done everything I could to dissuade from this extreme response.

AWS's decision to cut ties with Parler was similarly ill conceived. I will never recommend AWS to any client of mine going forward if there is any chance that the business of my client could one day meet with a similar fate - for example, no oil and gas company should ever use AWS services again, just in case. I would point out that Parler's executives are idiots for putting themselves in this position in the first place, and while I disagree with AWS's business decision, I'm even more strongly disappointed with Parler's failure to correctly assess their own risks and act appropriately. The signs that this could occur were abundant and easy to foresee. Parler deserves this result for their own failed risk management.

These companies will pay business penalties for these business decisions. That is the way it's all supposed to work. They achieved their statuses as "the new town squares" by creating excellent forums for discourse, and they can lose that status by diminishing the value of their own platforms (e.g.: by failing to appropriately encourage freedom of speech everywhere).

I hope that clarifies some of my thoughts. I consider this a tricky point of view, but one that is consistent with both my business world views, and my societal views.

__________________________________

Next point: Trump should have been banned years ago, based on Twitter's own terms of service. He has consistently violated their rules, and it's frankly shocking that it took this long. Yes, it would have the negative business consequences mentioned above, but not as bad as they are likely to be now.

Paraphrasing another analogy of mine: You can not walk into a restaurant, take a **** on a table, and expect to be allowed to stay. And yet, this is exactly what Trump has been doing on Twitter many times a day for many years. In fact, he did it so often that Twitter felt the need to put signs by his pile of ****, which are basically equivalent to apologies to their other users. They didn't finally ban him from their restaurant, until he lit that pile of **** on fire.


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 Post subject: Re: Off Topic Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:38 pm 
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DJ0045 wrote:
I will paraphrase what I said to a Republican friend of mine:

This is not about Free Speech, it's about a business decision, and a bad one at that. Twitter's decision is absolutely fine (although poorly thought out), but I will not be surprised if it results in distrust of their platform and creates opportunities for competitors to enter the market. If I were sitting in their boardroom when the decision was made, I would have told them of their grave error, and done everything I could to dissuade from this extreme response.

AWS's decision to cut ties with Parler was similarly ill conceived. I will never recommend AWS to any client of mine going forward if there is any chance that the business of my client could one day meet with a similar fate - for example, no oil and gas company should ever use AWS services again, just in case. I would point out that Parler's executives are idiots for putting themselves in this position in the first place, and while I disagree with AWS's business decision, I'm even more strongly disappointed with Parler's failure to correctly assess their own risks and act appropriately. The signs that this could occur were abundant and easy to foresee. Parler deserves this result for their own failed risk management.

These companies will pay business penalties for these business decisions. That is the way it's all supposed to work. They achieved their statuses as "the new town squares" by creating excellent forums for discourse, and they can lose that status by diminishing the value of their own platforms (e.g.: by failing to appropriately encourage freedom of speech everywhere).

I hope that clarifies some of my thoughts. I consider this a tricky point of view, but one that is consistent with both my business world views, and my societal views.


Didn't parler violate AWS ToS by not having actual moderation?


EDIT: It's interesting how they all invoke Lincoln but none of the republicans have invoked raegan lol

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Last edited by deadpoet on Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Off Topic Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:41 pm 
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The 1st Amendment says the government (Congress) shall make no law abridging freedom of speech.

Abridge - (Law) to curtail or limit (i.e. a right or privilege).

It in no way covers what private businesses do.

The same goes for press and freedom of assembly and petitioning the government for redress of grievance.

Freedom of religion gets a bit extra words but is also essentially the same.

———-

A Democratic Congresswoman’s office had all of their panic buttons removed prior to the event. This just keeps getting worse.

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 Post subject: Re: Off Topic Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:46 pm 
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deadpoet wrote:
DJ0045 wrote:
I will paraphrase what I said to a Republican friend of mine:

This is not about Free Speech, it's about a business decision, and a bad one at that. Twitter's decision is absolutely fine (although poorly thought out), but I will not be surprised if it results in distrust of their platform and creates opportunities for competitors to enter the market. If I were sitting in their boardroom when the decision was made, I would have told them of their grave error, and done everything I could to dissuade from this extreme response.

AWS's decision to cut ties with Parler was similarly ill conceived. I will never recommend AWS to any client of mine going forward if there is any chance that the business of my client could one day meet with a similar fate - for example, no oil and gas company should ever use AWS services again, just in case. I would point out that Parler's executives are idiots for putting themselves in this position in the first place, and while I disagree with AWS's business decision, I'm even more strongly disappointed with Parler's failure to correctly assess their own risks and act appropriately. The signs that this could occur were abundant and easy to foresee. Parler deserves this result for their own failed risk management.

These companies will pay business penalties for these business decisions. That is the way it's all supposed to work. They achieved their statuses as "the new town squares" by creating excellent forums for discourse, and they can lose that status by diminishing the value of their own platforms (e.g.: by failing to appropriately encourage freedom of speech everywhere).

I hope that clarifies some of my thoughts. I consider this a tricky point of view, but one that is consistent with both my business world views, and my societal views.


Didn't parler violate AWS ToS by not having actual moderation?


EDIT: It's interesting how they all invoke Lincoln but none of the republicans have invoked raegan lol


I don't know.

This was still a terrible business decision. The choice could easily have been made to continue hosting them and give them time to find a new server option or bring themselves into compliance. That action would have been far less damaging. As it stands, they proved that they are willing to destroy a company under certain circumstances, and that's a precedent they will never live down.


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 Post subject: Re: Off Topic Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:52 pm 
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Disney came out today and said they are cutting off all political funding to politicians who contested the election.

They aren’t usually a political entity, so I think the wind is definitely now blowing in a single direction.

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 Post subject: Re: Off Topic Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:56 pm 
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DJ, both Twitter and AWS have acted like they are monopolies. They might not be wrong.

I agree with you if they had less market share of their respective businesses, then these decisions would be insane. But I think they made them cuz they feel they have a monopoly and I'm sure they're entirely wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Off Topic Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:00 pm 
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DJ0045 wrote:
deadpoet wrote:
DJ0045 wrote:
I will paraphrase what I said to a Republican friend of mine:

This is not about Free Speech, it's about a business decision, and a bad one at that. Twitter's decision is absolutely fine (although poorly thought out), but I will not be surprised if it results in distrust of their platform and creates opportunities for competitors to enter the market. If I were sitting in their boardroom when the decision was made, I would have told them of their grave error, and done everything I could to dissuade from this extreme response.

AWS's decision to cut ties with Parler was similarly ill conceived. I will never recommend AWS to any client of mine going forward if there is any chance that the business of my client could one day meet with a similar fate - for example, no oil and gas company should ever use AWS services again, just in case. I would point out that Parler's executives are idiots for putting themselves in this position in the first place, and while I disagree with AWS's business decision, I'm even more strongly disappointed with Parler's failure to correctly assess their own risks and act appropriately. The signs that this could occur were abundant and easy to foresee. Parler deserves this result for their own failed risk management.

These companies will pay business penalties for these business decisions. That is the way it's all supposed to work. They achieved their statuses as "the new town squares" by creating excellent forums for discourse, and they can lose that status by diminishing the value of their own platforms (e.g.: by failing to appropriately encourage freedom of speech everywhere).

I hope that clarifies some of my thoughts. I consider this a tricky point of view, but one that is consistent with both my business world views, and my societal views.


Didn't parler violate AWS ToS by not having actual moderation?


EDIT: It's interesting how they all invoke Lincoln but none of the republicans have invoked raegan lol


I don't know.

This was still a terrible business decision. The choice could easily have been made to continue hosting them and give them time to find a new server option or bring themselves into compliance. That action would have been far less damaging. As it stands, they proved that they are willing to destroy a company under certain circumstances, and that's a precedent they will never live down.



Apparently in Amazon's response to the suit filed by paler amazon did tell them to shape up,but they didn't.

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 Post subject: Re: Off Topic Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:02 pm 
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mjack33 wrote:
Disney came out today and said they are cutting off all political funding to politicians who contested the election.

Not just Disney, https://www.axios.com/business-donation ... 3f284.html


Nike "will not support any member of Congress ... who voted to decertify the Electoral College results" through its PAC, the company said in a statement.

Walt Disney Company will pause political contributions in 2021 to lawmakers who voted to reject certification of Electoral College votes. “The insurrection at our nation’s Capitol was a direct assault on one of our country’s most revered tenets: the peaceful transition of power," a spokesperson told Axios.

Facebook, Microsoft and Google are all pausing political spending.

Walmart's PAC is "indefinitely suspending contributions to those members of Congress who voted against the lawful certification of state electoral college votes," spokesperson Randy Hargrove told Axios in a statement.

Aerospace giant Northrop Grumman is pausing its PAC donations and "evaluating the way forward," spokesperson Tim Paynter told Defense News.
Comcast said it was suspending political contributions to elected officials who challenged the certification of Electoral College votes.

Verizon also said it was suspending political contributions to lawmakers who protested the Electoral College results.

Amazon said, "given the unacceptable attempt to undermine a legitimate democratic process, the Amazon PAC has suspended contributions to any member of Congress who voted to override the results of the U.S. presidential election."

BP's employee PAC will pause all contributions for six months and reevaluate its criteria for candidate support.

AT&T's Federal PAC board decided to suspend contributions to members of Congress who objected to the certification of Electoral College votes.

JPMorgan Chase is pausing all giving to both parties for six months. "The country is facing unprecedented health, economic and political crises," said Peter Scher, chair of the Mid-Atlantic Region and head of corporate responsibility. "There will be plenty of time for campaigning later."

Citi's head of global government affairs, Candi Wolff, said in a letter to colleagues that the bank will pause all contributions in Q1, and that after that, "[W]e will not support candidates who do not respect the rule of law."

Marriott International said the hotel giant will pause donations "to those who voted against certification of the election."

Blue Cross Blue Shield Association said it will suspend contributions to "lawmakers who voted to undermine our democracy" by challenging Electoral College results.

Boston Scientific, the medical device maker, is pausing all federal gifts.

Goldman Sachs is freezing donations through its PAC. The company told The New York Times it will conduct “a thorough assessment of how people acted during this period."

Dow, the chemical giant, told Bloomberg it will not donate to lawmakers who voted against the certification for one election cycle — two years for those in the House and six years for senators.

BlackRock said it will pause all PAC donations, and will meanwhile "conduct a thorough review of the events and evaluate how we will focus our political activity going forward," according to a company memo obtained by Axios.

Airbnb said its PAC will withhold donations to lawmakers "who voted against the certification of the presidential election results.”

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 Post subject: Re: Off Topic Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:04 pm 
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oh,if you want to see a live shot of downton of here i live,we now have a webcam set up lol https://share.earthcam.net/RoswellNewMe ... /dashboard

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 Post subject: Re: Off Topic Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:04 pm 
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DJ0045 wrote:
I don't know.

This was still a terrible business decision. The choice could easily have been made to continue hosting them and give them time to find a new server option or bring themselves into compliance. That action would have been far less damaging. As it stands, they proved that they are willing to destroy a company under certain circumstances, and that's a precedent they will never live down.


From the case:

C. Parler Repeatedly Violates the Agreement.
In mid-November 2020, AWS received reports that Parler was hosting content
threatening violence, in breach of the agreement. Executive 2 Decl. ¶ 4. On November 17,
2020, seeking to better understand Parler’s approach to content moderation, AWS provided
Parler two representative examples, asked whether “this type of content … violate[s] [Parler’s]
policies,” and asked for “more detailed information on [Parler’s] policies and processes for
handling and mitigating” such content. Id. & Ex. D. Two days later, Parler responded that it had
referred one of the examples to its “regular contact for investigation.” Id. Ex. D.
Over the next seven weeks, AWS reported more than 100 additional representative pieces
of content advocating violence to Parler’s Chief Policy Officer, including:
 “Fry’em up. The whole fkn crew. #pelosi #aoc #thesquad #soros #gates
#chuckschumer #hrc #obama #adamschiff #blm #antifa we are coming for you and
you will know it.”
 “#JackDorsey … you will die a bloody death alongside Mark Suckerturd
[Zuckerberg].… It has been decided and plans are being put in place. Remember
the photographs inside your home while you slept? Yes, that close. You will die a
sudden death!”
 “We are going to fight in a civil War on Jan.20th, Form MILITIAS now and
acquire targets.”
 “On January 20th we need to start systematicly [sic] assassinating [sic] #liberal
leaders, liberal activists, #blm leaders and supporters, members of the #nba #nfl
#mlb #nhl #mainstreammedia anchors and correspondents and #antifa. I already
have a news worthy event planned.”
 “Shoot the police that protect these **** senators right in the head then make the
senator grovel a bit before capping they ass.”
Case 2:21-cv-00031-BJR Document 10 Filed 01/12/21 Page 4 of 13
 “After the firing squads are done with the politicians the teachers are next.”
 “Death to @zuckerberg @realjeffbezos @jackdorsey @pichai.”
 “White people need to ignite their racial identity and rain down suffering and death
like a hurricane upon zionists.”
 “Put a target on these motherless trash [Antifa] they aren’t human taking one out
would be like stepping on a roach no different.”
 “We need to act like our forefathers did Kill [Black and Jewish people] all Leave
no victims or survivors.”
 “We are coming with our list we know where you live we know who you are and
we are coming for you and it starts on the 6th civil war… Lol if you will think it’s
a joke… Enjoy your last few days you have.”
 “This bitch [Stacey Abrams] will be good target practice for our beginners.”
 “This cu** [United States Secretary of Transportation Elaine Chao] should be…
hung for betraying their country.”
 “Hang this mofo [Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger] today.”
 “HANG THAt N***** ASAP”

Content encouraging violence continued to grow rapidly after the events of January 6,
and on January 8, 9, and 10, 2021, AWS reported additional examples of that content. Executive
2 Decl. ¶ 6. On January 8 and 9, AWS also spoke with Parler executives about its content
moderation policies, processes, and tools, and emphasized that Parler’s current approach failed to
address Parler’s duty to promptly identify and remove content that threatened or encouraged
violence. Id. In response, Parler outlined additional, reactive steps that would rely almost
exclusively on “volunteers.” Id. AWS continued to see problematic content hosted on Parler.
Id. ¶ 7. During one of the calls, Parler’s CEO reported that Parler had a backlog of 26,000
reports of content that violated its community standards and remained on its service.

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 Post subject: Re: Off Topic Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:10 pm 
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I only mentioned *only* Disney bc their entire business is being non-controversial and family friendly. Thus I use it as a kind of litmus test whenever they do anything even remotely controversial.

Whatever happened, it’s become completely non controversial to “cancel” this group of Republicans.

——

With all the new information that keeps coming out, I’m thinking we still don’t know just how bad this insurrection was. I mean even McConnell is at least considering expediting the trial to start Friday; and the FBI has warned lawmakers it’s going to be shocking once we finally know the extent of their Investigation. Some seriously **** up **** has to be going on with the behind the scenes investigation.

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 Post subject: Re: Off Topic Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:12 pm 
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mjack33 wrote:
I only mentioned *only* Disney bc their entire business is being non-controversial and family friendly. Thus I use it as a kind of litmus test whenever they do anything even remotely controversial.

Whatever happened, it’s become completely non controversial to “cancel” this group of Republicans.


Disney does all of their PAC and other related stuff on the DL,as to avoid being controversial and ticking of a section of their audience

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 Post subject: Re: Off Topic Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:20 pm 
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Honestly I don’t know if Amazon should have done this; but if they were ever gonna do this to anyone; this is the most justifiable kind of case for doing it.

Same with Twitter. If you are ever going to ban a world leader from your platform, preventing them from using it to incite rebellion is one of the best reasons u could pick.

Edit:

Honestly, the best course of action for AWS and Twitter would have been to not let it get to this point. They had clear rules and were not enforcing them, so the situation got way out of hand. But short term profits yada yada.

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 Post subject: Re: Off Topic Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:37 pm 
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that's a cool webcam of Roswell. I was just watching Better Call Saul a couple of nights ago, getting my New Mexico fix.

I didn't know you could get street-level live feed of a webcam like that. i thought it broke a bunch of privacy stuff.


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that's a cool webcam of Roswell. I was just watching Better Call Saul a couple of nights ago, getting my New Mexico fix.

I didn't know you could get street-level live feed of a webcam like that. i thought it broke a bunch of privacy stuff.


You realize that earth cam is filled with all kinds of webcams that show streets from all over the world right?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:43 pm 
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Toilet thought: These people seriously want to repeal Section 230 because they think it will stop censorship lol.

——-

Deadpoet, what time do the aliens normally stream?

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 Post subject: Re: Off Topic Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:12 pm 
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Wintervoid wrote:
DJ0045 wrote:
I don't know.

This was still a terrible business decision. The choice could easily have been made to continue hosting them and give them time to find a new server option or bring themselves into compliance. That action would have been far less damaging. As it stands, they proved that they are willing to destroy a company under certain circumstances, and that's a precedent they will never live down.


From the case:

C. Parler Repeatedly Violates the Agreement.
In mid-November 2020, AWS received reports that Parler was hosting content
threatening violence, in breach of the agreement. Executive 2 Decl. ¶ 4. On November 17,
2020, seeking to better understand Parler’s approach to content moderation, AWS provided
Parler two representative examples, asked whether “this type of content … violate[s] [Parler’s]
policies,” and asked for “more detailed information on [Parler’s] policies and processes for
handling and mitigating” such content. Id. & Ex. D. Two days later, Parler responded that it had
referred one of the examples to its “regular contact for investigation.” Id. Ex. D.
Over the next seven weeks, AWS reported more than 100 additional representative pieces
of content advocating violence to Parler’s Chief Policy Officer, including:
 “Fry’em up. The whole fkn crew. #pelosi #aoc #thesquad #soros #gates
#chuckschumer #hrc #obama #adamschiff #blm #antifa we are coming for you and
you will know it.”
 “#JackDorsey … you will die a bloody death alongside Mark Suckerturd
[Zuckerberg].… It has been decided and plans are being put in place. Remember
the photographs inside your home while you slept? Yes, that close. You will die a
sudden death!”
 “We are going to fight in a civil War on Jan.20th, Form MILITIAS now and
acquire targets.”
 “On January 20th we need to start systematicly [sic] assassinating [sic] #liberal
leaders, liberal activists, #blm leaders and supporters, members of the #nba #nfl
#mlb #nhl #mainstreammedia anchors and correspondents and #antifa. I already
have a news worthy event planned.”
 “Shoot the police that protect these **** senators right in the head then make the
senator grovel a bit before capping they ass.”
Case 2:21-cv-00031-BJR Document 10 Filed 01/12/21 Page 4 of 13
 “After the firing squads are done with the politicians the teachers are next.”
 “Death to @zuckerberg @realjeffbezos @jackdorsey @pichai.”
 “White people need to ignite their racial identity and rain down suffering and death
like a hurricane upon zionists.”
 “Put a target on these motherless trash [Antifa] they aren’t human taking one out
would be like stepping on a roach no different.”
 “We need to act like our forefathers did Kill [Black and Jewish people] all Leave
no victims or survivors.”
 “We are coming with our list we know where you live we know who you are and
we are coming for you and it starts on the 6th civil war… Lol if you will think it’s
a joke… Enjoy your last few days you have.”
 “This bitch [Stacey Abrams] will be good target practice for our beginners.”
 “This cu** [United States Secretary of Transportation Elaine Chao] should be…
hung for betraying their country.”
 “Hang this mofo [Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger] today.”
 “HANG THAt N***** ASAP”

Content encouraging violence continued to grow rapidly after the events of January 6,
and on January 8, 9, and 10, 2021, AWS reported additional examples of that content. Executive
2 Decl. ¶ 6. On January 8 and 9, AWS also spoke with Parler executives about its content
moderation policies, processes, and tools, and emphasized that Parler’s current approach failed to
address Parler’s duty to promptly identify and remove content that threatened or encouraged
violence. Id. In response, Parler outlined additional, reactive steps that would rely almost
exclusively on “volunteers.” Id. AWS continued to see problematic content hosted on Parler.
Id. ¶ 7. During one of the calls, Parler’s CEO reported that Parler had a backlog of 26,000
reports of content that violated its community standards and remained on its service.


I get it, but it doesn't matter. Clearly they did not give Parler sufficient warning to avoid a complete shut down of the company. This has nothing to do with whether or not I agree with the social justification for the decision. This entire critique is based on the business decision.

@BB... and proving that you are a monopoly often has significant consequences - usually highly negative ones (yet another reason this was a very risky business move).


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 Post subject: Re: Off Topic Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:22 pm 
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Realistically what they should have done is consistently enforce their rules the entire time so that there wouldn’t be room for legitimate criticism. If a company using their services was not following the rules, there has to be some reasonable punishment process with escalation for repeat offenses. That’s reasonable and would have suitably covered their ass. Whereas that is not at all what recent events come across as. So there is significant room now for legitimate criticism.

Same with Twitter and Facebook. And Twitch. And YouTube.

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