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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:10 pm 
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Spoiler

Captive Audience {5}{B}{R}
Enchantment
Captive Audience enters the battlefield under the control of an opponent of your choice.
At the beginning of your upkeep, choose one that hasn't been chosen —
• Your life total becomes 4.
• Discard your hand.
• Each opponent creates five 2/2 black Zombie creature tokens.

Not really a good card but man i would hate to get smacked with it lol

Something kinda cool about this is it dodges stuff like Conclave Tribunal and Ixalan's binding as they are "target opponent controls" and you're giving it to them haha, cruel reality did see a little play so this might get there? Either way cool as hell!

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:13 pm 
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@divinevert I think we're sort of going round in circles here, especially since we both have the same evaluation of Disinformation Campaign. So I'll leave the argument to rest.

Spoiler

Captive Audience {5}{B}{R}
Enchantment
Captive Audience enters the battlefield under the control of an opponent of your choice.
At the beginning of your upkeep, choose one that hasn't been chosen —
• Your life total becomes 4.
• Discard your hand.
• Each opponent creates five 2/2 black Zombie creature tokens.

Not really a good card but man i would hate to get smacked with it lol

Something kinda cool about this is it dodges stuff like Conclave Tribunal and Ixalan's binding as they are "target opponent controls" and you're giving it to them haha, cruel reality did see a little play so this might get there? Either way cool as hell!


Just wait till someone plays Oath of Teferi on it :D


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:51 pm 
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DJ0045 wrote:

@Timh it’s a bit of a semantics issue. To me, I lump all of those decks into Aggro-Control. But if we are thinking in terms of better descriptive words, I’d argue UW is actually more tempo than UG usually gets to be. Both spirits and humans tend to have tempo effects, and many mono U or W creatures have tempo effects (edit: in those two colors). Mono G cards almost never have tempo effects. So if I’m ranking tempo amongst the mono colors, it would be U > W >> G >>>> B or R.


Aggro isn't inherently anti tempo tho. Every color utilizes tempo in some way. Your ranking places R last (or 2nd to), but one of reds oldest effects is making creatures unable to block. Cards like Ravenous Chupacabra and Flametongue Kavu provide tempo swings. Green gains tempo with mana acceleration and efficient creature stats. Sylvan Advocate is a strong tempo card because it profitably blocks anything opp may have cast T1 and most things cast T2, all while being able to still block after it attacks. Mystic Snake and the new wizliz version are much more tempo deck cards than control deck ones.

The type of deck that cares least about tempo is control, where they're more interested in card advantage. Yes, of course bonus if you can do both, but if having to chose one or the other then control will usually take card advantage. And if I'm thinking about what stands out most to me with color pairs, it's tempo with Simic and control with Azorius.

But yeah, I concede that UW has a history of some pretty strong tempo decks.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:37 pm 
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DJ0045 wrote:

@Timh it’s a bit of a semantics issue. To me, I lump all of those decks into Aggro-Control. But if we are thinking in terms of better descriptive words, I’d argue UW is actually more tempo than UG usually gets to be. Both spirits and humans tend to have tempo effects, and many mono U or W creatures have tempo effects (edit: in those two colors). Mono G cards almost never have tempo effects. So if I’m ranking tempo amongst the mono colors, it would be U > W >> G >>>> B or R.


Aggro isn't inherently anti tempo tho. Every color utilizes tempo in some way. Your ranking places R last (or 2nd to), but one of reds oldest effects is making creatures unable to block. Cards like Ravenous Chupacabra and Flametongue Kavu provide tempo swings. Green gains tempo with mana acceleration and efficient creature stats. Sylvan Advocate is a strong tempo card because it profitably blocks anything opp may have cast T1 and most things cast T2, all while being able to still block after it attacks. Mystic Snake and the new wizliz version are much more tempo deck cards than control deck ones.

The type of deck that cares least about tempo is control, where they're more interested in card advantage. Yes, of course bonus if you can do both, but if having to chose one or the other then control will usually take card advantage. And if I'm thinking about what stands out most to me with color pairs, it's tempo with Simic and control with Azorius.

But yeah, I concede that UW has a history of some pretty strong tempo decks.


Definitely a semantics issue based on this post.

We’re discussing two slightly different things here. Tempo in the overall sense, versus tempo decks. These aren’t really the same thing, hence the confusion. The way you’re using ‘tempo’ I’d usually describe as initiative - cards like Kavu and Chupacabra overcome early disadvantages in order to swing the initiative in your favor. Whereas tempo decks, to me, are trying to get an early advantage, and then defend it. They tend to be slightly slower Aggro decks, with sufficient interaction to keep the opponent on the back foot until they win. (This is as opposed to pure Agro decks, which are focused only on counting to 20 as fast as possible).

FWIW, you can find lots of articles on both subjects. And once you read them, you can see they aren’t actually the same subjects at all, even though they all use the word ‘tempo.’

Edit: This might help clarify the semantic issues: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2006-09-30


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:05 pm 
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Ok, I'm more using tempo in the general sense where you're using it in the more specific Tempo Deck sense where your attacking your opponent's tempo. Fair distinction.

I maintain my color pair associations tho. If someone tells me they made good Simic and Azorius decks, my 1st guess before seeing the card lists on what those are would be Simic Tempo (in the specific Tempo Deck sense) and Azorius Control. Azorius could easily be Tempo, so your point is taken - but Simic isn't as likely to be something else and still be good.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:22 pm 
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That’s why I stay away from the term tempo deck (which is fairly loaded), and prefer the term Agro control, which is better at describing what the decks do. For example, one of my all time favorite tempo decks (Agro-control) was actually in RB. It had very strong early creatures, and packed sufficient interaction to slow the opponent’s attempts to stabilize long enough to win. 2 power one drops, 3 power 2 drops, and then all kinds of cheap removal, and ways to stop the opponent from getting into the game. It was always ahead on ‘beats’ but I wouldn’t call it Agro.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:33 pm 
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I have theory on why this is confusing for you and anyone else TIMH. It's because guys that like control call it an azorius cntrl when referring to a control deck that came from any set in /. It references when cards like supreme verdict, detention sphere and Sphinx's Revelation from return to ravnica made possible super durdly control decks.

The rest of us when building a disruptive aggro deck in these colors call it blue white tempo. Blue white spirits is in my mind a perfect example of what blue white tempo looks like, fliers and little tricks that keep your opponent off balance. Guys that play these decks call them blue white because that's the color combo but control guys like to reference the guild.

Why these players differ on calling it by the guild or the colors i have never understood but it's my observation.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:21 pm 
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Interesting theory. Might explain it. Simic Tempo is a term I hear often, but I can't recall an instance of someone using Azorius Tempo. If they have a deck like that, I hear it called UW fliers or UW Tempo.

I was out of magic when Ravnica dropped, and missed the ability associated with the guild then that was tempo focused (that someone referenced earlier in this thread). When I got back into magic, people were calling their UW control decks Azorius Control and the association formed.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:23 pm 
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divinevert wrote:
If something forces me to re-evaluate, I'd be very shocked, but I'd have no problem re-evaluating if and when that happens. Until then, Disinformation Campaign is just clearly the better card.

Look at it like this: if a card had the option: "Draw a card and choose one: Your opponent discards a card or you gain 2 life" which would you pick? Outside of situations where your opponents hand is completely empty, discard is just a much stronger effect.

Lifegain payoffs make lifegain worth it. In a vacuum DC is certainly better, but if a deck is built around a lifegain payoff say if your deck plays felidar sovereign and most of the deck is either controlling the board or gaining you life then i will take the life option.

I am wondering if there will be a new lifegain payoff that is yet to be revealed. Regardless midrange decks will have to have a recovery plan beccause rakdos / aritocrats is looking nasty.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:17 pm 
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My problem is that the card doesn’t trigger on sorceries. If it did, I could get behind it, but I can’t think of a playable card that has “play mtg poorly” as a condition for gaining value from it.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:32 pm 
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Uncommons mostly today, here are a few that caught my eye.

Spoiler

Forbidding Spirit

Creature - Spirit Cleric
When Forbidding Spirit enters the battlefield, until your next turn, creatures can't attack you or a planeswalker you control unless their controller pays for each of those creatures.
"You will respect the dead."

I love the effect, reminds me of a enchantments matter deck i made with Sphere of Safety. I am disappointed that this is a one turn effect and basically makes the card meh. (unless we can repeatedly blink it?)

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Sky Tether

Enchantment - Aura
Enchant creature

Enchanted creature has defender and loses flying.
"If you can't control your mount, I will control it for you."
-Mirela, Azorius hussar

I like removal like this but i feel like enchantment removal is going to be a good bit more prevalent in decks that can run it. Still i like the cost and design if you are running a deck full of fliers. "your doom whisperer is grounded"

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:54 pm 
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DJ0045 wrote:
My problem is that the card doesn’t trigger on sorceries. If it did, I could get behind it, but I can’t think of a playable card that has “play mtg poorly” as a condition for gaining value from it.

Bant spells deck that also runs Wilderness Reclamation playing your instants on your turns isn't that big a deal. I'm not really saying it should be played yet. It needs more support, not enough addendum cards and no payoff that makes it worth it.

A lifegain control deck would be interesting though.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:25 pm 
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DJ0045 wrote:
My problem is that the card doesn’t trigger on sorceries. If it did, I could get behind it, but I can’t think of a playable card that has “play mtg poorly” as a condition for gaining value from it.

Bant spells deck that also runs Wilderness Reclamation playing your instants on your turns isn't that big a deal. I'm not really saying it should be played yet. It needs more support, not enough addendum cards and no payoff that makes it worth it.

A lifegain control deck would be interesting though.


It might be, but the enchantment probably won’t make the cut. Reclamation is a powerful effect, the other is not. You’ll almost certainly end up cutting the life gain enchantment in favor of better draw, or better life gain, even in the dedicated deck, imo. Even if the reclamation deck features a lot of addendum cards, which I doubt (at this time) that it will.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:59 pm 
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Forbidding Spirit is certainly interesting. For one, it's a Ghostly Prison effect that comes with a 3/3 body. It's not so easy to see how to make full use of his effect though. If you're an aggro deck, the effect is obviously irrelevant. If you're a control deck, then this is basically a fog for a turn, but fogs aren't exactly effective in a vacuum. It's at its best if you already have a planeswalker on the battlefield of course, but if you ever untap with a planeswalker you're in good shape anyway. What else is he good for, racing? If he's blue I can imagine Monoblue Obsession using him, but he isn't.

Sky Tether looks very strong. 1-mana removal is always worth a look, and this neutralizes everything from the biggest Death Shadows to the likes of Lyra Dawnbringer. Sure the creature can still block, but if you aren't planning on winning by attack steps or on the ground, the defender won't matter.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:26 pm 
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Forbidding Spirit is a tempo play that leaves a 3/3 body. Your opponent has to chose to develop their board or swing the turn after you play him. U/W fliers or B/W spirits will like him.

Yeah i like sky tether quite a bit. Perfect for a fliers deck.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:33 pm 
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Question

Incubation Druid
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with Unclaimed Territory out.


Will the druid be able to tap for all colors since unclaimed territory can produce all colors for specific creature types?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:58 am 
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Should be:one or three mana, any one color. Not sure, but I’d assume it can produce the specific mana, if the type was named.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:02 am 
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Not sure if it has to be a named creature type you're adding mana for or not; need a judge. I would think it works without dependency since the card *can* technically generate any color - I would accept it as legal if playing a friendly kitchen table game (EDIT: Druid is producing the actual mana; the land is just being checked for what it "could produce"), but IDK officially.

What deck would you want to run Unclaimed Territory with Incubation Druid? If for your elf deck in constructed subform, I don't see the point. You fantasizing about a 5 color deck?

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Last edited by The Secret of TIMH on Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:09 am 
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DJ0045 wrote:
DJ0045 wrote:
My problem is that the card doesn’t trigger on sorceries. If it did, I could get behind it, but I can’t think of a playable card that has “play mtg poorly” as a condition for gaining value from it.

Bant spells deck that also runs Wilderness Reclamation playing your instants on your turns isn't that big a deal. I'm not really saying it should be played yet. It needs more support, not enough addendum cards and no payoff that makes it worth it.

A lifegain control deck would be interesting though.


It might be, but the enchantment probably won’t make the cut. Reclamation is a powerful effect, the other is not. You’ll almost certainly end up cutting the life gain enchantment in favor of better draw, or better life gain, even in the dedicated deck, imo. Even if the reclamation deck features a lot of addendum cards, which I doubt (at this time) that it will.


That's where I'm at. Bant Wilderness seems like the one place you could get the best out of it, but if I'm building that deck, I'm dreaming bigger. Probably have better things to do with that sexy broken card.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:43 am 
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Looks like the rest of the set is getting spoiled today. I skimmed through it, nothing of real interest so far.


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