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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:00 pm 
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Kel'Thuzad wrote:
A very underrated card for dealing with fliers in mono green is Vines of the Recluse. The untap + Reach is always completely unexpected.. and quite powerful for 1 mana. Unlike Plummet, it's not dead in hand if they have no fliers, as you can surprise ground attackers with it too. Being a fairly small pump is usually irrelevant in a deck full of fatties. It's better than Blossoming Defense in a deck where most of the bombs already have protection, and a huge weakness to fliers in a meta where that's relevant.


Not trying to be a dick but there's a lot of credit being given here where it isn't necessarily due. Mono green has already been done and made viable since Origins.
I wouldn't mind the NGA veteran circle-jerking if a bit of thanks or credit was also given to newer members where it's due.


I'll give newer members credit when they suggest cards that aren't Vines of the Recluse, deal?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:16 pm 
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Kel No one is claiming I invented the wheel, sure mono-green has been "viable" since origins but Aether revolt brought a lot of new toys to the field in the form of Riskar's expertise, monstrous onslaught, druid ect that has actually bumped it up from "viable" to "actually pretty decent." I also went back 3 pages and saw no posts about mono green so i don't know where you're getting the idea that new players aren't getting credit.

Anyway I've played a bunch more games and Ballista has won me over, It's not the most exciting thing in the deck but the versatility really sells it to me (the pinging ability also is funny with monstrous onslaught ) and even if it's not that big the turn it comes out the turn after it definitely will be haha.

A lot of people have been suggesting different vehicle/flying hate and granted so far i've only tested out rec sage in here but i ended up cutting them as i felt it was just fighting a losing battle, even with the games i drew 2 sages the vehicle matchup was still at best like 60-40 to them and i felt it diluted the deck too much, a lot of our cards are already so situational adding more seems dangerous. Might be wrong though it's just so rough trying to find the room, although i think if i were to run any i'd probably lean towards rec sage over plummet or ornamental courage, god i wish we could have a sideboard haha

Also i haven't missed nature's way at all really, especially since the third monsterous onslaught most of the time i just build up to a big one of them, or if i don't have it riskar's into it, so i think going down to 0 copies of it might be the right choice


Well to clarify, when I say "viable" I mean "as a competitive deck capable of hitting high 30's on ladder", which it has been capable of since Origins if built well and played well. Whilst there's no recent mono green threads there's been quite a few green ramp decks with a second colour splash that have included Rishkar's, Onslaught and Druids.
To illustrate my point, you're even getting credit for a sacrifice/hand destruction deck in the other thread... :wha:

Rec Sages are probably sub-optimal if you're not running Woodland Bellower.

And lol @ divinevert.. Vines is pretty solid in mono green. And I did call it "underrated" for a reason i.e. because a lot of people don't know it.
Same guy who called my advice to cut excessive ramp spells from Selesnya ramp and rely on the dorks "awful", when we're only looking to play 'good stuff' a turn or two ahead of schedule, which the dorks and a couple of Veggies do just fine.
You're the worst of the arrogant NGA vets.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:20 pm 
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Most arrogant, maybe.
Best player doe

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:27 pm 
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Spoiler

First - Sleep/Kel - A deck can't have everything unfortunately and diluting card choices for particular deck weaknesses is often a bad call. You often have to accept the weakness(es) of a deck in Duels because we don't have a side board (and even with side boards, there's still bad match ups that you're not expected to win). As it is, Duels decks are often built fairly broad to cover a range of meta matches because of our restrictions and lack of side board. There just has to be a limit to how far (or how broad) you build it. So for the suggestions, Recluse is fairly narrow and I'd rather stick with the Blossoming Defense if we're going to consider the 'card with an ability and pump as an upside'. Plummet is even worse as it has no secondary ability and; as Kel pointed out, can be a dead card. Both cards are sideboard cards (as the mass majority of cards in Duels are) and generally not playable. It's why many decks repeat choices over and over (look at the deck building contest and the number of repeated cards between all the submissions).

Now the second part. I rarely get involved in forums drama; regardless of the subject matter, because I'm just not that sort of person (and I don't need the stress). This is a game and I'm involved here to try and have some good times and take my mind away from my disability and chronic pain. So with that in mind, I'm not looking to start a debate here but I am hoping to give you a different perspective.

Please realize that most players; especially ones who are 'long in the tooth', have gone through what you're implying. Everyone has made posts that have been overlooked or missed. Everyone has made a post that was TLDR. Everyone has made builds that others have also come up with. Everyone has thought 'credit' was taken from them or feel others received it unfairly. If you come seeking acknowledgement and gratification, you're often going to end up disappointed (and realistically coming here for the wrong reasons). I can't tell you the number of times I've built something only to see someone else get recognized for it. I'm not the only one who plays fun decks or themed decks and 'has experience'. I'm not the only one to get lost in the shuffle of posts. But that's just it, I'm not the only builder or poster. I'm not the only one looking at a LIMITED number of cards with an even smaller number of cards that are actually playable. I'm not the only green stompy fan (and have been since I started playing magic back in 2008). You can't possibly think you're the only person who's put time in and has experience with the deck idea(s)? For reference in relation to this thread, every time we get a new set, I revisit green stompy. EVERY TIME. Same goes for people not responding to posts or thoughts/ideas. Being overlooked. Heck I started a silly thread to poke fun at BBB and Psyatog which promptly crashed and burned horribly. It just happens. What's even more true is the volume of posts that folks may have to go through or how frequently they might visit. I'm sporadic at best for getting to the forums and even more so for posting (same goes for my game play). I do my best to 'comb' through posts but some get skimmed and others get all together missed or ignored. Some might be as simple as they made a suggestion in the first sentence with which i disagree (*cough* Recluse *cough*), and I'm on to the next one. Further to that, there are the friend factors. There are a number of members here that I've created friendships with and I will gravitate to their posts/work just because of the relationship. It's not a slight at anyone, it's just that their my friends (which in turn means I spend less time looking at other people's posts - again due to my circumstance and time I can muster). What I'm trying to say is, check your emotions at the door. You're not the only one to experience those feelings.
Also something else to consider is being critical of your choices/suggestions as well as other people's replies/responses. If folks are ignoring your deck building suggestions (and you've decided that your post wasn't overlooked), is it that everyone else is wrong and you're the only one with experience who can see the choice? Or is it that the general consensus of players disagree with that idea in that build? Sometimes it's a tough pill to swallow but often our personal 'experience' doesn't compare to the experience of the community (that old adage of two heads are better....). Regardless of what it is, unruffle your feathers, keep posting, keep debating, keep making suggestions and do it because you want to, not because you want something out of it.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:45 pm 
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Just to add to that, no one can claim to have invented a deck in duels, the cardpool is way too small for that and Squider certainty isn't suggesting that in the other thread, this is how it went down i'm assuming:

- Squider posts thread about wanting to build a U/B discard deck
- I then post a vid about a U/B artifact discard deck (i got the idea from Pikeworm fwiw)
- Squider watches vid, decides he likes that version of discard, makes post in thread pointing out that deck, calls it "nighthawk's build " Rather then saying "A U/B artifact discard deck featuring baral's expertise and witness the end synergy that nighthawk recently uploaded with"

Squider's not claiming i solely invented the deck, it's the same way back in the day we used to call archetypes like "hakeem's G/B control" or "gemini's geistramp" because it's simpler to say that, people know what the deck is trying to do, and the people usually have video's/posts about the deck that go deep into the deck.

Basically you're assuming malice by saying the veteren's here are stealing glory from the newer guys here but there is no glory to be had as again, no one can claim to have made an archetype in duels.

Also we probably shouldn't be discussing it here, if you want to make a post in the main forum that's probably a better place to discuss it

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:10 am 
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Appreciate your response Elk.

I'm not coming here with the motivation of recognition. I genuinely either want to help people or open-mindedly take feedback on my own decks.
But it becomes disheartening if I repeatedly sit there for 30+ minutes typing out a well-thought-out and reasoned response only to have it a) ignored, b) told it's awful or c) not even get so much as a 'thank you'. As I said, check out the hand destruction thread for a good example..
Or if I post a good deck the best I can hope for is a total lack of replies because no-one can find fault with it (which is fine, but it wouldn't kill people to see past their ego and leave a "hey cool deck" like they would if I was one of the inner circle).
Meanwhile people like divinevert come along and drop a one-liner to the effect of "lawl X card/suggestion is awful *drops the mic*" and gets worshipped as a forum hero because he's an NGA vet and good at the game.

I'm not thinking I'm the only one whose put in time and experience with a certain deck and demanding I be hailed as the sole pioneer. It just might come across that way when I'm trying to explain why someone who's late to the party shouldn't get that title/praise either.
And I'm the same as you, green ramp is one of my fav archtypes and I try to build/improve it with every expansion. Hence considering myself somewhat of an authority on it. When I'm speaking from that much experience, I don't expect it to be so difficult to convince someone to cut 1-2 of their 24 forests for a utility land that will win them a buttload of games.

It's not impossible for a consensus to be wrong. Vines is a 1 mana instant speed surprise block removal that also happens to cover a big weakness of the deck. It's not narrow or situational at all beyond needing your opponent to attack (which they likely will if your creatures are tapped out or can't block fliers). In a deck full of protected bombs, I'm not sure how +2/+2 is better than Reach, Untap, & +1/+2 .. But as always I am open to counter arguments that aren't cheeky one-liners and are backed up with reasoning.

Just to add to that, no one can claim to have invented a deck in duels, the cardpool is way too small for that and Squider certainty isn't suggesting that in the other thread, this is how it went down i'm assuming:

- Squider posts thread about wanting to build a U/B discard deck
- I then post a vid about a U/B artifact discard deck (i got the idea from Pikeworm fwiw)
- Squider watches vid, decides he likes that version of discard, makes post in thread pointing out that deck, calls it "nighthawk's build " Rather then saying "A U/B artifact discard deck featuring baral's expertise and witness the end synergy that nighthawk recently uploaded with"

Squider's not claiming i solely invented the deck, it's the same way back in the day we used to call archetypes like "hakeem's G/B control" or "gemini's geistramp" because it's simpler to say that, people know what the deck is trying to do, and the people usually have video's/posts about the deck that go deep into the deck.

Basically you're assuming malice by saying the veteren's here are stealing glory from the newer guys here but there is no glory to be had as again, no one can claim to have made an archetype in duels.

Also we probably shouldn't be discussing it here, if you want to make a post in the main forum that's probably a better place to discuss it

I didn't see anything about wanting to specifically build an U/B discard deck? He posted an unfocused B/W control deck with some discard, to which I took the time to offer my sac/discard build as an example. Which he then didn't acknowledge and starting talking about your sac/discard build (which I couldn't even find with a forum search, but if its a YT video that might explain it).

As I said to Elk, I'm not looking to be hailed as the inventor of an archtype... Although afaik I'm the only one to post about building and refining hand destruction in AER. I don't have to be given any credit (but should it go to anyone else?). Some acknowledgement for offering my experience would keep me wanting to help people.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:28 am 
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Kel'Thuzad wrote:
I'm not coming here with the motivation of recognition.

I'm going to try and highlight here how this sentence says you read my post but didn't really hear what it was trying to say


Kel'Thuzad wrote:
only to have it a) ignored, b) told it's awful or c) not even get so much as a 'thank you'.
Kel'Thuzad wrote:
total lack of replies (wouldn't kill people to see past their ego and leave a "hey cool deck" like they would if I was one of the inner circle).
Kel'Thuzad wrote:
when I'm trying to explain why someone who's late to the party shouldn't get that title/praise either.
Kel'Thuzad wrote:
Which he then didn't acknowledge and starting talking about your sac/discard build.
Kel'Thuzad wrote:
I'm not looking to be hailed as the inventor of an archtype... Although afaik I'm the only one to post about building and refining hand destruction in AER. I don't have to be given any credit (but should it go to anyone else?). Some acknowledgement for offering my experience would keep me wanting to help people.




Kel'Thuzad wrote:
It's not impossible for a consensus to be wrong. Vines is a 1 mana instant speed surprise block removal that also happens to cover a big weakness of the deck. It's not narrow or situational at all beyond needing your opponent to attack (which they likely will if your creatures are tapped out or can't block fliers). In a deck full of protected bombs, I'm not sure how +2/+2 is better than Reach, Untap, & +1/+2 .. But as always I am open to counter arguments that aren't cheeky one-liners and are backed up with reasoning.

My point I made earlier in the thread is that I don't think any of those options should be there. The 2 slots are better used than some sort of small pump, protection, combat trick etc. I'd rather have 2 cards with more value and flexibility. Those slots are competing now with things like Walking Ballista and Duskwatch Recruiter. The majority of the time I'd rather have either of those two cards in my hand than the protection/pump options.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:40 am 
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Didn't read most of it but - Vines is not a good card. Yes it can eat a flyer, but so can cards like Nature's Way and Monstrous Onslaught. Untapping isn't a big deal unless you're in a racing situation, which you probably won't be, since you are a mono Green deck. Besides Nature's Way also "untaps" by providing vigilance, AND it can simultaneously kill the troublesome flyer. Meanwhile there are cards that boost harder (Primal Bellow) or provide useful side-effects you can't easily get elsewhere (Blossoming Defense).

elk can I get your opinion in the GC Ramp thread a bit further back in this subforum? That list and this one shares a lot of cards, and I'm curious what can be ported over and what cannot. I'm particularly curious about Monstrous Onslaught, which I didn't even consider.

For your list in particular some quick thoughts:

1) I'd think about running utility lands (Rogue's Passage especially). You lose some points in Primal Bellow, but it shouldn't be dire.
2) No Copter / Harvester / Skysovereign? These are good cards that survive sweepers, I'd definitely try to run them.
3) 2x Gaea's AND 2x Plated Crusher might be too much. I get you hate control, but this is very aggressively slanted against them. I'd probably cut two of the four (probably Gaea's, since Plated Crusher works better with Primal Bellow).
4) Aetherwind Basker is also an unusual card to see. Why not run something like Greenwarden or Ulvenwald Hydra or Ulamog, all of which have immediate impact? Or more Reclamation Sages. I've long started using two as the default number, and have not minded three.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:58 am 
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Says to run cards with more immediate impact.. then suggests cutting Gaea's Revenge and keeping Plated Crusher. Seems legit.

Truth be told.. the Basker might be better than both of them, as it ends games usually the turn after its played. The card is that explosive. I didn't think much of the thing until I played it.. then I played it and saw how easily it became a 13/13 trample the following turn without even using any pump spells.

Also.. when did Divine become an NGA veteran? That schmuck hasn't even been around here two years.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:08 am 
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Blissgirl9 wrote:
Also.. when did Divine become an NGA veteran? That schmuck hasn't even been around here two years.


My impact in the last year is the stuff of legends tho

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:12 am 
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So this is where the party has been at this dull month!

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:17 am 
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divinevert wrote:
Blissgirl9 wrote:
Also.. when did Divine become an NGA veteran? That schmuck hasn't even been around here two years.


My impact in the last year is the stuff of legends tho


You've had about as much impact as WWE Diva's match.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:28 am 
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The lizard has been a surprise for me as well, before i played with it if you'd told me i'd be choosing it over crusher/revenge i'd have thought you lost your mind haha

Like you look at it and go "what, it's basically a 8/8 or a 9/9 for 7 mana which isn't that impressive, but every time i've cast it it's been hitting for at least 12 (2 creatures, then the turn after play a creature then attack) which is a whole different kettle of fish - if it lives your opponent is most likely dead, but that is a big if.

Like i said though the top end in this deck is pretty flexable, just run whatever you want and it'll do the job just fine haha

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:46 am 
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Blissgirl9 wrote:
divinevert wrote:
Blissgirl9 wrote:
Also.. when did Divine become an NGA veteran? That schmuck hasn't even been around here two years.


My impact in the last year is the stuff of legends tho


You've had about as much impact as WWE Diva's match.


Sorry to clarify on this, but they are no longer Divas and it's not a Diva's championship anymore. It has been changed to the womens championship and the matches are way better than any diva one has ever been(with exception to maybe lita's matches). It is sad to say, but I watch wrestling every Monday and Tuesday nights. I haven't gotten into watching 205 live or nxt much yet.

Further proof is my avatar for this site. It's Becky Lynch and for those wondering, yes she modeled herself after Chandra Nalaar.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:53 am 
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Blissgirl9 wrote:
divinevert wrote:
Blissgirl9 wrote:
Also.. when did Divine become an NGA veteran? That schmuck hasn't even been around here two years.


My impact in the last year is the stuff of legends tho


You've had about as much impact as WWE Diva's match.


The day I even pretend to care about the opinion of the knockoff version of me, posting through his girlfriend's account (or, alternatively, the girlfriend of the knockoff version of me) is the day I quit NGA altogether. Reading your posts is like reading my B-roll of material that I wrote once and then immediately thought, "Nah, those jokes are just too lazy, even for NGA"

Is there a thing below B-roll for actors? C-roll, maybe?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:05 am 
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It's his wife, counsel.

Beast is just poking fun anyway. Normally it should be he that Kel would be getting mad at and obviously it's irksome that you now have this proud role.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:08 am 
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It's his wife, counsel.

Beast is just poking fun anyway. Normally it should be he that Kel would be getting mad at and obviously it's irksome that you now have this proud role.


(I know Barney. I'm poking fun back. This is that whole explaining the joke thing I hate)

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:11 am 
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ugh I'm the worst :(


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:51 am 
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BTW Kel the quick way to become an NGA veteran is putting vert on ignore. You don't miss anything you wouldn't want to anyhow. After that you may still not get any credit for anything you post, but you'll deal with a lot less blatant flamebaiting.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:55 am 
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This is how I imagine Vert lurking here for unwary prey.

Spoiler

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