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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:05 pm 
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I'd like to know where we stand now that the list has been spoiled.
Educate me ! I run a fair share of walkers in my control decks, but I rarely play dedicated PW decks. I'm not here to tell you that it's a boring piece of ass, I actually think that there's alot of decision making in the land sequencing and the different modes you should use on those buggers. It's just not my style of play.

What I do think I know about these decks though, is that the Alpha and Omega of it starts at disciplined deckbuilding, even if you are cramming 15 mythics into your list.

With Kaladesh, probably only Chandra, the flamesculptor is a must to try and cram in there, due to her power and versatility, at 4 mana double though, this might prove a challenge.

Structural cards that seem non negotionable or close for PW control are Aether Hub and Cultivator's Caravan.

Aether hub needs no discussion, it will help to cast alot of spells at almost 0 deckbuilding cost. Darksteel Ingot however is a bit less obvious. f you pretend that it isn't a vehicle, would you play a 3 mana ramp/fixer in these decks? I know I've met my share of Explosive vegetation in PW control, so this should be at least as good right ?
Do you play it ? Do you try and accomodate the fact that it's a vehicle?
It sure would be great to have better mana, and Aether hub is only a 3 of, do you take the risk of playing Darksteel Ingot when aggro will be breathing down your neck in a week from now?


This is just to start all of you PW control affectionados, there will be no list from me, this is not my thing, and I'm sure NGA can do way better than my untested lists. Go forth and sleeve up your mythics brethren !


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:26 pm 
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Hmm, let's see...

x2 Cultivator's Caravan
x3 Aether Hub
x3 Pilgrim's Eye

The problem with Aether Hub is that you'll have to accommodate whether you want energy in the deck, and if so, what card will supply that? This archtype needs its variety colors constantly and in the early game could be costly; this will need testing though. :party:

You could also take a different approach and go..

x3 Ruin in their Wake

Our mana at the point will be sweked towards along with Oath of Nissa. I like this line better if you ask me. Another thing to point out is that we could run, maybe....

x2 Incendiary Sabotage

This could be another soft wipe for the deck and you can sac an Eye to it after it retrieved a land.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:37 pm 
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zzmorg82 wrote:
The problem with Aether Hub is that you'll have to accommodate whether you want energy in the deck, and if so, what card will supply that? This archtype needs its variety colors constantly and in the early game could be costly; this will need testing though. :party:


Harnessed Lightning will be the standard of efficient removal in this meta, but shhh that's Podcast material so keep it on the down-low. :thumbsup:

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 7:10 pm 
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zzmorg82 wrote:
The problem with Aether Hub is that you'll have to accommodate whether you want energy in the deck, and if so, what card will supply that? This archtype needs its variety colors constantly and in the early game could be costly; this will need testing though. :party:


Harnessed Lightning will be the standard of efficient removal in this meta, but shhh that's Podcast material so keep it on the down-low. :thumbsup:


I personally don't think so, but maybe that is just me.

By itself it is a 2cmc Lightning Bolt that can't be aimed at the face.

With other Energy support I could maybe see it working, that said, I feel like the number of decks that want it is relatively limited. If your deck is running either :b: or :w: I feel you are just better off running some of the less conditional removal that those colors offer. Also I feel like most of the decks that really bank on Energy would rather be spending it on cards that help them close out the game.

*shrug* I could be completely off, but I am not suitably impressed so far. Maybe my mind will change after we actually get a chance to play with the cards some.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:16 am 
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Hm, I'm not that psyched about Aether Hub either. I don't think three lands are worth packing a pw.dec with energy sources. That leaves us with three lands who could be any color one single time. In a 4/5c deck where we have greedy mana requirements like Planar Outburst or Languish I could see problems with that even in the lategame.
I have to try it out though.
Cultivator Caravan is another card I'm unsure about. It doesn't come with a body right away and a pw.dec (mine: viewtopic.php?f=61&t=15638&start=60) has less creatures naturally. So it is an managiving artifact for 3cmc most of the time. Idk, again I will try and error it.
The red sweeper for 4cmc sucks as.s in my opinion compared to Radiant Flames.
To the pw themselfs, the new Chandra has a tough manacost at T4 for me, maybe I have to get more red into the deck. Otherwise, her second +1 is not really giving me any value when I have no red spells to cast after I cast her T4. And I don't like her first +1, when I have not enough mana to cast a revealed Sorin and get him exiled. She works best in a burn or prowess deck. But I have to check.
The new Nissa should be an autoinclude. Easy manacost for my deck, direct protection (the land creature stays until my next turn!) and card recursion.
The other 3cmc pw Is not that tight, but I'll give her a chance, because scry and a little bit of dmg is nice, and the pseudolifegain for 3cmc also.
I will be heavy brewing and give you my final thoughts then.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:24 am 
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I personally don't think so, but maybe that is just me.

By itself it is a 2cmc Lightning Bolt that can't be aimed at the face.

With other Energy support I could maybe see it working, that said, I feel like the number of decks that want it is relatively limited. If your deck is running either :b: or :w: I feel you are just better off running some of the less conditional removal that those colors offer. Also I feel like most of the decks that really bank on Energy would rather be spending it on cards that help them close out the game.

*shrug* I could be completely off, but I am not suitably impressed so far. Maybe my mind will change after we actually get a chance to play with the cards some.


You don't need energy at all, that's just a bonus. It's instant speed, splashable 3 damage to creatures. Much easier to cast in your 4 Colour decks than Grasp, and waiting until turn 3 for a Murder or something is going to suck against aggro. You could always burn for 1 on an Asylum Visitor or something and cast the next one for 5 later on.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:18 am 
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Harnessed Lightning is definitely solid; though in PW.dec I think I'd still run Oath of Chandra over it. Sorcery speed is not a huge drawback in tapout-control, while the extra damage this deals to the opponent or his planeswalkers can make a big difference.

My take on the future of PW Control:

I think that PW.dec will be solidly 4 colour after the update. Red got a big enough buff to keep itself relevant (Chandra, which will likely replace Arlinn Kord), while Blue's walkers did not get enough improvements. Tamiyo doesn't have enough targets for her +1, the same is true for Saheeli's -2.

Cultivator's Caravan will be the manafixing of choice; a Manalith that can sometimes attack as a 5/5 lategame is very good. This will replace Fork in the Road/Pilgrim's Eye/Read the Bones for manafixing.
Not 100% sure if Aether Hub will make the deck, but with the increased amount of Red the deck may need to run it to cast a spell it otherwise might not be able to.

New Nissa will definitely be in as well; either replacing Greenwarden of Murasa or being run alongside him. Not sure how clunky running 3 Nissas will be; maybe Voice of Zendikar sees the axe.

One card I'm not sure about is Midnight Oil. If it works how I think it does (draw you 3 cards and then leaving you with a maximum hand size of 1), it's not good for the deck. If it works how divinevert wrote in another thread (draws you a card each turn even with 0 or 1 time counter on it), it might actually see play depending on how much draw the deck really needs.

Another card I'm unsure about is Kambal. The lifegain can be very relevant against aggressive strategies, but I doubt he's impactful enough to make the deck. He's good though, and there are some control strategies he fits into (most notably Mardu Control).

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:26 am 
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I personally don't think so, but maybe that is just me.

By itself it is a 2cmc Lightning Bolt that can't be aimed at the face.

With other Energy support I could maybe see it working, that said, I feel like the number of decks that want it is relatively limited. If your deck is running either :b: or :w: I feel you are just better off running some of the less conditional removal that those colors offer. Also I feel like most of the decks that really bank on Energy would rather be spending it on cards that help them close out the game.

*shrug* I could be completely off, but I am not suitably impressed so far. Maybe my mind will change after we actually get a chance to play with the cards some.


You don't need energy at all, that's just a bonus. It's instant speed, splashable 3 damage to creatures. Much easier to cast in your 4 Colour decks than Grasp, and waiting until turn 3 for a Murder or something is going to suck against aggro. You could always burn for 1 on an Asylum Visitor or something and cast the next one for 5 later on.


I don't exactly think this is a good argument. Sure, if you run multiples then it can potentially provide its own Energy, like the scenario you mentioned. That said, requiring multiples of a card AND specifically not casting the first one for its full potential to be able to use the second one for more later isn't exactly what I consider good value. Sure, there will be times when you blow up a 2 power creature and have that extra 1 Energy floating around to cast the second copy for 4 or similar scenarios.

The card feels very much like Galvanic Bombardment to me. The more of them you have the better they get. That said, I still feel like this wants to be in a similar place to Galvanic Bombardment where other cards in the deck make those multiples even more useful (a deck that runs other sources of Energy for Harnesses Lightning, a deck that can mill or otherwise dump cards into the yard for Galvanic Bombardment).

Now don't take this as me saying that the card is bad, because it certainly isn't and I am not saying that at all. What I am saying is that I feel like the card isn't going to be quite as prevalent as you personally believe it will be.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:51 am 
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Now don't take this as me saying that the card is bad, because it certainly isn't and I am not saying that at all. What I am saying is that I feel like the card isn't going to be quite as prevalent as you personally believe it will be.


If the meta is as aggressive as predicted (hey, we were all wrong on W/G humans right?) then this is the most efficient removal spell, particularly vs Vehicles. There's no other instant spell for 2 mana other than Grasp which beats it, and that requires . Fiery Impulse is 1 mana, but will only every go to 3. Galvanic Bombardment pretty much requires you to run it as a 4 of for any real value. At least Harnessed Lightning is more flexible in it's damage-cost ratio.

If Vehicle.dec falls flat, and we're only looking at Smuggler's Copter/FleetWheel Cruiser making it into a few decks, then I'll agree.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:53 am 
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Now don't take this as me saying that the card is bad, because it certainly isn't and I am not saying that at all. What I am saying is that I feel like the card isn't going to be quite as prevalent as you personally believe it will be.


If the meta is as aggressive as predicted (hey, we were all wrong on W/G humans right?) then this is the most efficient removal spell, particularly vs Vehicles. There's no other instant spell for 2 mana other than Grasp which beats it, and that requires . Fiery Impulse is 1 mana, but will only every go to 3. Galvanic Bombardment pretty much requires you to run it as a 4 of for any real value. At least Harnessed Lightning is more flexible in it's damage-cost ratio.

If Vehicle.dec falls flat, and we're only looking at Smuggler's Copter/FleetWheel Cruiser making it into a few decks, then I'll agree.


Well to be fair; W/G humans is strong, it's just that everyone and their mothers were afraid to be up agaisnt it so they packed their decks with early removal and chump blockers; meta changing indeed. :P

Another vehicle card that'll see play in multiple midrange decks is Skysovereign, Consul Flagship.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:57 pm 
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My take on new walkers is focused on RG with spashes of black and white, and it does not rely on sweepers and expects plenty of vehicles. The mana may suck and needs actual gameplay testing.

KLD Superfriends 1st Draft

Description
Adding Hub and Lightning to see if that helps or hurts the mana, pushing towards R/G as primary colors and away from W/G. Perhaps Oath of Liliana should be Radiant Flames in the new meta.

Creature(11)
2x Sylvan Advocate
3x Reclamation Sage
2x Tireless Tracker
1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2x Woodland Wanderer
1x Woodland Bellower

Instant(5)
3x Harnessed Lightning
2x Anguished Unmaking

Sorcery(2)
2x Declaration in Stone

Enchantment(6)
2x Oath of Nissa
2x Oath of Chandra
2x Oath of Liliana

Planeswalker(10)
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1x Arlinn Kord
1x Nahiri, the Harbinger
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
1x Nissa, Vital Force
1x Chandra, Flamecaller
1x Sorin, Grim Nemesis

Land(26)
2x Shambling Vent
2x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Needle Spires
2x Mountain
2x Cinder Glade
2x Hissing Quagmire
3x Forest
2x Rootbound Crag
4x Evolving Wilds
3x Aether Hub

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:12 am 
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Here's some food for thought:

I believe that PW.dec can start thinking of going 2 color.
I'm currently working on an izzet PW.burn deck that runs 5 walkers... Crazy huh?
2 colors certainly helps out in the mana department and the only real problem is when you draw 2 jaces or chandras and need both on the board.
Just an idea... I'm no authority on PW.decs so take this opinion for what its worth, but as the showdown showed, getting greedy can have its toll on consistency.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:54 am 
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Haven_pt wrote:
Here's some food for thought:

I believe that PW.dec can start thinking of going 2 color.

Quote:
PW.dec can start thinking of going 2 color.

Quote:
2 color.


:wha: But how will I spam all of my protagonists?

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You can go for 2 colour I guess, but you may as well go 3 and reap the benefits.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:11 am 
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Ran CGBs deck vs Rakdos Thopters, results are surprising; I was sure the mana would be a mess, but PW control won 4/2 ! The rec sages are really really mean, and Oath of liliana is pretty good here because of the massive amount of walkers, but I'm still thinking radiant flames would probably do more.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:16 pm 
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I'm just not a fan of running big creatures like Woodland Wanderer in Superfriends; eats too much removal for my taste; unless you're using it for bait that is.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:13 am 
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I'm still not convinced that four colour is the way to go, even with the fixing that we've gained - you're making accommodations to make your deck work and opening yourself up to lose harder to aggro. With the amount of amazing cards with double costs too it just doesn't seem worth the hassle. It's almost impossible to get a hand where you can sequence your land so you don't lose pace at some point in four colour. I mean Oath of Nissa is amazing (being rare isn't great though), but when you start looking at running Pilgrim's Eye/Courier it just seems like you're losing out on value for your curve. There's enough decent top end in three colours to give you all the win cons you could need - going for four just seems greedy: when you're working with a deck that is mostly reliant on grinding and inevitability you need to be sure you don't lose before you can get going.

For example Mardu has the space to run Filigree Familiar, which is everything a control deck could want, and paired with Unlicensed Disintegration you get a nice little package (at uncommon!) that is very easy on mana. If you don't want to drop green Abzan will give the you the 'goodstuff' version of PW.dec. Hell, if you still want fixing Abzan can give you that too. They don't really lose anything for dropping a colour but gain a lot more consistency.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:23 am 
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Sjokwaave wrote:
I'm still not convinced that four colour is the way to go, even with the fixing that we've gained - you're making accommodations to make your deck work and opening yourself up to lose harder to aggro. With the amount of amazing cards with double costs too it just doesn't seem worth the hassle. It's almost impossible to get a hand where you can sequence your land so you don't lose pace at some point in four colour. I mean Oath of Nissa is amazing (being rare isn't great though), but when you start looking at running Pilgrim's Eye/Courier it just seems like you're losing out on value for your curve. There's enough decent top end in three colours to give you all the win cons you could need - going for four just seems greedy: when you're working with a deck that is mostly reliant on grinding and inevitability you need to be sure you don't lose before you can get going.

For example Mardu has the space to run Filigree Familiar, which is everything a control deck could want, and paired with Unlicensed Disintegration you get a nice little package (at uncommon!) that is very easy on mana. If you don't want to drop green Abzan will give the you the 'goodstuff' version of PW.dec. Hell, if you still want fixing Abzan can give you that too. They don't really lose anything for dropping a colour but gain a lot more consistency.


Jund seems to have some great value in it, and you're keeping the Oath too. Not sure if it's more suited to a midrange deck though. Losing access to Sorin, Anguished Unmaking, Outburst and Declaration seems rough.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:55 am 
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Sjokwaave wrote:
I'm still not convinced that four colour is the way to go, even with the fixing that we've gained - you're making accommodations to make your deck work and opening yourself up to lose harder to aggro. With the amount of amazing cards with double costs too it just doesn't seem worth the hassle. It's almost impossible to get a hand where you can sequence your land so you don't lose pace at some point in four colour. I mean Oath of Nissa is amazing (being rare isn't great though), but when you start looking at running Pilgrim's Eye/Courier it just seems like you're losing out on value for your curve. There's enough decent top end in three colours to give you all the win cons you could need - going for four just seems greedy: when you're working with a deck that is mostly reliant on grinding and inevitability you need to be sure you don't lose before you can get going.

For example Mardu has the space to run Filigree Familiar, which is everything a control deck could want, and paired with Unlicensed Disintegration you get a nice little package (at uncommon!) that is very easy on mana. If you don't want to drop green Abzan will give the you the 'goodstuff' version of PW.dec. Hell, if you still want fixing Abzan can give you that too. They don't really lose anything for dropping a colour but gain a lot more consistency.


Jund seems to have some great value in it, and you're keeping the Oath too. Not sure if it's more suited to a midrange deck though. Losing access to Sorin, Anguished Unmaking, Outburst and Declaration seems rough.


Which is why you go Abzan. :party: I think going 4 colors is fine; as long as you the right amount of appropriate lands and a board wipe you should fine most of the time. :P

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