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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:36 pm 
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zzmorg82 wrote:
Zerris wrote:
Spoiler


Lashweed Lurker doesn't seem all that great with so many nonland permanents having "enter the battlefield" abilities now-a-days. Overall, I like the suggestions; I have a Bant list I'll post soon.


It's certainly borderline for me - but I like that it very cleanly answers Brisela, Voice of Nightmares and all the Mill enchantments, while being reasonable in a lot of other spots. We also have Subjugator Angel, which saw some play from LSV in his bant deck to deal with Ishkanahs and Emrakuls.

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If I ever built an Esper Control deck, it would still somehow contain 2x Sylvan Advocate, 2x Tireless Tracker, 1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer, 1x Reclamation Sage, 1x Nissa, Vital Force, and 1x Woodland Bellower.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:00 am 
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Zerris wrote:
I was wondering what the current look of a Bant Good Stuff deck was, and InFaMoUsGeMiNi's latest update looks fairly similar to what I built this afternoon:



That said, with all the sweepers and control in the format, I think it's very hard to justify 4 drops with no ETB or self-protection, and 5-drops that don't end the game. Leap also feels a little odd; I think you want to be pushing the tempo aspect of the deck as hard as possible, rather than trying to play to a late game. We don't have Collected Company, so we can't go too long. As such, I'd suggest:

Remove
1x Gisela, the Broken Blade
2x Woodland Wanderer
2x Evolutionary Leap
1x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
2x Forest

Add
2x Rattlechains
2x [] Elder Deep-Fiend
2x [] Lashweed Lurker
2x Plains

Rattlechains is fantastic for defending both Spell Queller and Selfless Spirit (in addition to letting you flash in Selfless Spirit for complete blowouts). Elder Deep-Fiend is a bit tough on the mana, but it's the best effect in the game for the gameplan we're trying to craft. Lashweed Lurker is just a nice card for adding insult to injury in case they slip something through - especially flip Jace. Without Leap or Nissa, we can cut down a lot of Forests, which ensures we can actually cast Gideon and Avacyn on curve. Elder Deep-Fiend will sometimes be a turn off curve - but it's a finisher anyway, so that's fine.

Thoughts?


Here are my thoughts.

Spoiler

_When deciding that I wanted this style of deck for the tournament, I knew I had to go down 1 of 2 roads. Some sort of Bant Spirit deck or a Selesnya Midrange deck with some light tempo/anti-sweeper tech in Selfless Spirit, Spell Queller, & Unsubstantiate. This is the midrange deck I almost submitted until I changed my mind back to Telling Time + Bounding Krasis.

_I wasn't fond of the Emerge Eldrazi because we do not have an upkeep phase & at best they can just buy you a turn. I think UG Emerge with Decimator as a finisher with scions is where that deck wants to go.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:58 am 
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Not having an upkeep makes Elder Deep-Fiend worse, but it doesn't make him bad. Especially at the higher ranks, people like to cast spells during second main phase - tapping them out during the begin combat step shuts that down as effectively as upkeep would. More importantly, though, casting during the end step still taps all their blockers and stops any potential Fog or Hydrolash tricks. It's also handy that most people like to suicide attack before casting a Planar Outburst style card - it means you respond to the attack by tapping them off a sweeper, eat all their attackers in combat, and kill them on the crack back.

You talking of Spirits reminded me of the real card I was missing, though - you don't want 2x Lashweed Lurker, you want 2x Nebelgast Herald! Or at least, I do. Can't speak for you. Also, I just realized Pack Guardian is a spirit... hmmm...

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If I ever built an Esper Control deck, it would still somehow contain 2x Sylvan Advocate, 2x Tireless Tracker, 1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer, 1x Reclamation Sage, 1x Nissa, Vital Force, and 1x Woodland Bellower.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:44 am 
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Zerris wrote:
Also, I just realized Pack Guardian is a spirit... hmmm...


I have seen the Light on Pack Guardian. Much better then I originally gave it credit for. Probably does not fit in a ton of decks, but being able to put 6 power on the table on endstep for 4 mana can be game wining, especially when paired w/ other spirits.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:40 pm 
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So you all don't like Bygone Bishop?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:54 pm 
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So you all don't like Bygone Bishop?


It don't got flash. Image It's too slow aswell for this type of deck in my opinion.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:07 pm 
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Bygone Bishop is a 2/3 flier without flash that rewards you for playing it, then flooding the board with creatures. This has three issues. First, it's a bad threat on its own. A 2/3 non-flash flier for impresses nobody, and you can't rely on Rattlechains to fix that. Second, it's awkward to get guaranteed value out of. Tireless Tracker can be played on T4 for one (or even two) clues immediately - using lands that would have come in to play tapped, so it's not even delaying your curve. Bygone Bishop needs to be played with 5+ lands to get a single clue before they can respond. But the real problem is that it encourages you to play bad magic. In a bant tempo deck, you want to put out enough pressure that your opponent has to respond, then hold up mana the rest of the game. Tireless Tracker plays perfectly with that style - just drop lands, crack clues if you don't need the mana - it's pressure and instant speed value at the same time. Bygone Bishop, by comparison, gains value only by overextending into sweepers and puts on no pressure of its own.

If your deck naturally has to overextended into sweepers (say, mono-white) and has a lot of cheap creatures so that you can trigger him multiple times a turn (say, mono-white), then it might be playable. Except most mono-white decks don't play it either - which should give you a sense of its relative power level.

If the "Spirit" typeline is worth a lot, that might also help - it probably makes the cut in a spirits deck, but only barely.

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If I ever built an Esper Control deck, it would still somehow contain 2x Sylvan Advocate, 2x Tireless Tracker, 1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer, 1x Reclamation Sage, 1x Nissa, Vital Force, and 1x Woodland Bellower.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:34 am 
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Hi, been out a while. Couldn't stand the non-priority and worse, Disciple of the Ring was mistreated.
Took me some time, but I finally found some time for online play and something other than 3 creature control.dec (Jace, Kalitas and Disciple) to play with.

Tricks decks are always fun. I saw Tamiyo, bounce and blink stuff and mashed them up. After 5 games vs. AI, leaving easily unscathed I went online.
I started with it and now I'm 9-1 with it up to rank 14 (got a couple more decks in the mix), with 4 matches were against 14+ while I was under lvl 7. One with Haunted dead + burn + tokens beat me to the punch.
From the higher ranks I beat UR mill, a Mardu control, BR Vamps and a couple of Human decks.The deck works rather smooth, it feels as it can be better.

The deck is UW with splashed green, which includes only 4 cards and 2 (The) boblands, which suffice late game vs. control and with Blessed Alliance lurking, blinking and self bounce help where hexproof doesn't. The other 4 aren't a surprise and each suffices extra draws.

The variety of spells gives the time needed, while keeping the longer-term solutions. Disperse beats Imprisoned in the Moon on timing many times.

Some issues and improving thoughts -
Bygone Bishop is rather slow here. Most of the time I start with the spells, not with a beatdown. At that kind of game, its ability is not the ability I look for in comparison to other creatures I have.
Also, by the time I get to cast Niblis of Frost, I usually could do with merely a bouncer to remove a creature from blocking and win the following turn. I tried Gisela in its spot and never got to cast it and won all those games with her in hand.

The land section needs revision. Althouogh it works more than well 8 out of 10, there are the two it doesn't. Also, I'd like to make room for the token maker lands, either or both. Stoic Builder for Councel? Also got a Steppe, so.


16 Creatures - the usual suspects
2 x Selfless Spirit
2 x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 x Bygone Bishop
1 x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 x Tireless Tracker
2 x Spell Queller
3 x Reflector Mage
1 x Niblis of Frost
1 x Archangel Avacyn


11 Instants
2 x Essence Flux
2 x Blessed Alliance
2 x Long Road Home
3 x Telling Time
2 x Disperse


4 Sorceries
2 x Declaration in Stone
2 x Collective Effort


2 Enchantments
2x Imprisoned in the Moon

2 Planeswalkers
1x Tamiyo, Field Researcher
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

25 Lands
5 x Plains
3 x Island
2 x Forest
2 x Lumbering Falls
1 x Canopy Vista
2 x Prairie Stream
2 x Hinterland Harbor
2 x Glacial Fortress
2 x Sunpetal Grove
1 x Blighted Steppe
1 x Meandering River
2 x Evolving Wilds


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:39 am 
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Shefer wrote:
Hi, been out a while. Couldn't stand the non-priority and worse, Disciple of the Ring was mistreated.
Took me some time, but I finally found some time for online play and something other than 3 creature control.dec (Jace, Kalitas and Disciple) to play with.

Tricks decks are always fun. I saw Tamiyo, bounce and blink stuff and mashed them up. After 5 games vs. AI, leaving easily unscathed I went online.
I started with it and now I'm 9-1 with it up to rank 14 (got a couple more decks in the mix), with 4 matches were against 14+ while I was under lvl 7. One with Haunted dead + burn + tokens beat me to the punch.
From the higher ranks I beat UR mill, a Mardu control, BR Vamps and a couple of Human decks.The deck works rather smooth, it feels as it can be better.

The deck is UW with splashed green, which includes only 4 cards and 2 (The) boblands, which suffice late game vs. control and with Blessed Alliance lurking, blinking and self bounce help where hexproof doesn't. The other 4 aren't a surprise and each suffices extra draws.

The variety of spells gives the time needed, while keeping the longer-term solutions. Disperse beats Imprisoned in the Moon on timing many times.

Some issues and improving thoughts -
Bygone Bishop is rather slow here. Most of the time I start with the spells, not with a beatdown. At that kind of game, its ability is not the ability I look for in comparison to other creatures I have.
Also, by the time I get to cast Niblis of Frost, I usually could do with merely a bouncer to remove a creature from blocking and win the following turn. I tried Gisela in its spot and never got to cast it and won all those games with her in hand.

The land section needs revision. Althouogh it works more than well 8 out of 10, there are the two it doesn't. Also, I'd like to make room for the token maker lands, either or both. Stoic Builder for Councel? Also got a Steppe, so.


16 Creatures - the usual suspects
2 x Selfless Spirit
2 x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 x Bygone Bishop
1 x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 x Tireless Tracker
2 x Spell Queller
3 x Reflector Mage
1 x Niblis of Frost
1 x Archangel Avacyn


11 Instants
2 x Essence Flux
2 x Blessed Alliance
2 x Long Road Home
3 x Telling Time
2 x Disperse


4 Sorceries
2 x Declaration in Stone
2 x Collective Effort


2 Enchantments
2x Imprisoned in the Moon

2 Planeswalkers
1x Tamiyo, Field Researcher
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

25 Lands
5 x Plains
3 x Island
2 x Forest
2 x Lumbering Falls
1 x Canopy Vista
2 x Prairie Stream
2 x Hinterland Harbor
2 x Glacial Fortress
2 x Sunpetal Grove
1 x Blighted Steppe
1 x Meandering River
2 x Evolving Wilds


Sounds like Elder Deep-Fiend is what you need instead of niblis of Frost.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 8:01 am 
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Thank you, haven_pt, much obliged.
I've tried the deck more, went 6-2, both losses were due getting stuck with 3-4 lands.
The Elder didn't show except once which won the game that turn.
This time the Collective Effort was workless in all games, where no 4+/x creatures or must-remove enchantments appeared and Always Watching would've been better, though it wouldn't solve the losses.
What the deck seems to need is -1 Bygone Bishop, -1 Elder and +2 quicker stuff. I thought about Oath of Nissa, but not sure how to rectify the mana base if so.
Any suggestions?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:51 am 
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I think you should add some cheap creatures if you want the deck to be faster. Sylvan Advocate, Duskwatch Recruiter or Lambholt Pacifist come to mind; especially the Werewolves interact well with instant-speed trickery.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:59 am 
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Don't like Nibis, baby Nissa and most of the spells.

As of spells I would use
3 x Unsubstantiate
2 x Declaration in Stone
2 x Collective Effort

and no more. Collective Effort is for enchantment hate mostly.

My replacement choices would be Rattlechains, Nebelgast Herald, Bounding Krasis and Octopus Deep Fried.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:53 pm 
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First, thank you both , I appreciate the ideas.

@WoodlandWanderer
The idea is turning the deck around to something is not. I'm really not an aggro style player, but I handled my fair share of decks.
I might be underworking Unsubstantiate, even in general, but here I don't see how it fits the deck.
Niblis or tapping Fiend or whatever that spot was, that spot is changing.
I thought Nissa should be cut as well, but I ult'ed her 4 times with this deck, due its self preservation build. I do take cutting her into account though.

@Modulo
That was my aim as well and I'll give Sylvan Advocate a second look.
Both Werewolves were left out of the deck because I didn't want cards that didn't suffice card advantage or tempo, but the deck just became slow. Also, Duskwatch Recruiter more often than not makes me frown losing spells and lands over getting a creature.


I'll go for Advocates for the Niblis of Frost/Elder Deep-Fiend spot and a Bygone Bishop first. I do take cutting flip Nissa into consideration and maybe adding a couple of creatures, though it's crowded for me already.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:40 pm 
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Unsubstantiate is a soft answer to Languish. More versatile than Disperse unless you found you need disperse to bounce planeswalker often? I don't.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:01 pm 
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Went 3-1 with Advocates seriously helping two of the games. Guess I needed some sheer power and not just tricking creatures.

I don't fear sweepers, because I don't have more than two creatures at a time vs control / superfriends and one can be bounced/blinked/selfless.
Disperse is really helping against aggro's enchancing enchantments, winning a combat and then the game.
I bounced a Lili at 7 once and she was the only PW I bounced.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 3:01 am 
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i took inspiration from BDD's deck that helped him reach the magic world championships, obviously not all the cards would be there but here is what I came up with

1 x Lumbering Falls
2 x Priarie Stream
2 x Canopy Vista
2 x Glacial Fortress
2 x Sunpetal Grove
2 x Hinterland Harbor
4 x Evolving Wilds
6 x Plains
1 x Island
3 x Forest

2 x Knight of The White Orchard
2 x Skyrider Elf
2 x Bygone Bishop
3 x Reflector Mage
1 x Bounding Krasis
2 x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 x Tireless Tracker
1 x Nissa, Vastwood Seer

2 x Declration In Stone
2 x Always Watching
2 x Collective Effort
3 x Gather The Pack


Below is the deck tech for you:



Wanna check out some matchups, look no further we got some gameplay for you:


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:46 am 
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I've grown to dislike Thalia, Heretic Cathar quite a bit. She does not much to impact most games and she doesn't compliment this deck as you want to play her as a follow up to a 1 drop into 2 drop. Shes better in a more aggressive deck.

I took her out for Elder Deep-Fiend


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 4:25 pm 
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Last edited by Remebame on Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:57 pm 
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-2 spell shrivel +2 blessed alliance


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:59 am 
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Introducing...

Bant Flicker

3 Essence Flux (Cheap flicker iz gewd flicker)
4 Elvish Visionary (Cantrips and is always a good flicker target)
2 Sylvan Advocate (Doesn't synergyze, but a guy that is good both early and late is a boon to any creature deck)
2 Smuggler's Copter (Are you a creature deck? If you are, you are running this card. Period)
2 Declaration in Stone (Best removal in the color combination)

4 Acrobatic Maneuver (Debating between this and Long Road Home. The second is cheaper and saves from sweepers, but most cards, you WANT to reap the rewards of the ETB immediately)
3 Reflector Mage (Does it even need an explanation?)
3 Bounding Krasis (Ditto)
2 Eldrazi Displacer (Recurring flicker iz gewd flicker)
2 Displace (Field reliant, but pretty powerful when it works)

3 Whirler Rogue (Good ETB is good)
2 Cloudblazer (Good ETB is good)
1 Angel of Invention (Still a creature deck, so an anthem is welcome. Flickering also makes her small 1 toughness butt less of an issue, and extra creatures are always good)
1 Verdant Gearhulk (You don't know joy until you call this, beef up your thopters and copter, flicker him, beef them up again, then flicker a third time for 11/10 style victory)
1 Greenwarden of Murasa (Card advantage, I call thy name)

3 Island
2 Plains
2 Forest
2 Wastes
2 Lumbering Falls
2 Prairie Stream
2 Canopy Vista
2 Hinterland Harbor
2 Glacial Fortress
2 Sunpetal Grove


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