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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:47 pm 
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Yes but Anchor doesn't have the felixibility of spout. It's not a MUST have in the deck, but the main reason control decks lose when not facing a god draw is because of variance : drawing the wrong mix of answers and threats. Spout is both, and fits the curve at both the early and late game.

Coastal discovrery is the same really. It's suboptimal draw but incredible value when you play it at 6cmc. It searches you more answers whilst producing a large threat at the moment that typically a control deck should have stabilized, and is trying to close out the game before losing control again to landflood :D

Mulldrifter was one of blue's much acclaimed tournament control staples over the years. Discovery is only a tad worse.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:56 pm 
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I'd have thought losing vs a god draw was more down to not having the answer in your own draw. You could have that Angelic Edict in there somewhere for that above-curve casted Ulamog, but not having it in your hand isn't a "variance" issue really. From that, I'd deduce the problem is more to do with card draw, or rather a lack of good card draw creatures like Elvish Visionary outside of green to pull double duties in sifting/stemming aggro. I mean, we got that awful 1 drop drone that's a one use Jayce on death, but nothing else that doesn't cost life/cards until turn 4. If you're casting that draw turn 4 on curve, you have no mana for an answer etc.

It's becoming a tiring situation to find myself in with all this sorcery speed draw where I know I need an answer for what's on the board, but I can't afford to drop that 3 mana counter spell shield for the threat I know will come after. That's where Anchor offers IMO more flexibility, since I can at least see if I'm getting screwed next turn or not.

Coastal Discovery is just a straight-upgrade for Inspiration TBH, so any deck running that card gets a bonus.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:10 pm 
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Well there's draw as card advantage and recource management to create indirect card advantage. Esper control in standard right now doesn't have powerful instant draw either in the early game. What it does have is lots of lands, card selection, lots of quality 1 for 1 answers, and a bunch of 2 for 1's at instant speed, the latter we lack here a bit.
So yes, that's the weak spot. Closest things we have to stuff such as Ojutai's command or Silumgar's command is stuff like Ulamog's nullifier, Brutal expulsion, and yes, Coastal Discovery and Spout ^^.
Keep in mind though aggro decks in this meta have way lower frequency of Goldfish than in standard as well. The meta is way slower.

The problem I think lies way more in mid-range currently. Having another 'uncounterable' threat in Ulamog made gruul even meaner.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:28 pm 
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Well there's draw as card advantage and recource management to create indirect card advantage. Esper control in standard right now doesn't have powerful instant draw either in the early game. What it does have is lots of lands, card selection, lots of quality 1 for 1 answers, and a bunch of 2 for 1's at instant speed, the latter we lack here a bit.
So yes, that's the weak spot. Closest things we have to stuff such as Ojutai's command or Silumgar's command is stuff like Ulamog's nullifier, Brutal expulsion, and yes, Coastal Discovery and Spout ^^.
Keep in mind though aggro decks in this meta have way lower frequency of Goldfish than in standard as well. The meta is way slower.

The problem I think lies way more in mid-range currently. Having another 'uncounterable' threat in Ulamog made gruul even meaner.


I don't think it's just mid-range. Going long now with the threat of the late game monsters available in this pool is just something our current control cards can't cope with. To much big stuff with too much "on cast" to negate counters, or being hexproof, plus having the mana advantage over you once you hit that panic sweeper button on turn 5 to stay alive.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:42 am 
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I've been playing this version of W/B/U control to some success:

2 x Hixus, Prison Warden
1 x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 x Erebos's Titan
1 x Ulamog's Nullifier
1 x Sire of Stagnation
1 x Oblivion Sower
1 x Disciple of the Ring

4 x Gideon's Reproach
3 x Inspiration
3 x Complete Disregard
2 x Languish
2 x Planar Outburst
2 x Scatter to the Winds
2 x Dispel
2 x Angelic Edict
2 x Necromantic Summons
1 x Coastal Discovery
1 x Reprisal
1 x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 x Ob Nixilis Reignited

4 x Plains
3 x Island
3 x Swamp
2 x Shambling Vent
2 x Sunken Hollow
2 x Prairie Stream
2 x Drowned Catacomb
2 x Isolated Chapel
2 x Glacial Fortress
4 x Evolving Wilds


It's slow. It answers early threats with a mixture of 1-to-1 removal cards like Gideon's Reproach and Complete Disregard and board wipes like Planar Outburst, Hixus, and Languish. Win conditions are few, but have been decent for me. I'm like 11-2 with this build, although many of my opponents have wound up conceding long before the game is over.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:39 pm 
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w6ire wrote:
I've been playing this version of W/B/U control to some success:

2 x Hixus, Prison Warden
1 x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 x Erebos's Titan
1 x Ulamog's Nullifier
1 x Sire of Stagnation
1 x Oblivion Sower
1 x Disciple of the Ring

4 x Gideon's Reproach
3 x Inspiration
3 x Complete Disregard
2 x Languish
2 x Planar Outburst
2 x Scatter to the Winds
2 x Dispel
2 x Angelic Edict
2 x Necromantic Summons
1 x Coastal Discovery
1 x Reprisal
1 x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 x Ob Nixilis Reignited

4 x Plains
3 x Island
3 x Swamp
2 x Shambling Vent
2 x Sunken Hollow
2 x Prairie Stream
2 x Drowned Catacomb
2 x Isolated Chapel
2 x Glacial Fortress
4 x Evolving Wilds


It's slow. It answers early threats with a mixture of 1-to-1 removal cards like Gideon's Reproach and Complete Disregard and board wipes like Planar Outburst, Hixus, and Languish. Win conditions are few, but have been decent for me. I'm like 11-2 with this build, although many of my opponents have wound up conceding long before the game is over.


Gonna give this a whirl, but one immediate thing to change (not sure if you have the card yet) would be swapping Inspiration for Coastal Discovery as it's a complete upgrade with no downside. Also, using both Black and Blue colors but no card draw in a control deck outside of those 3 copies?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:57 pm 
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The 1 Coastal Discovery was a test mainly to see if the Awaken was ever worth the sorcery speed. I don't think it has come up much and Inspiration is better so I can get behind that change.

And yes, those four slots are the only pure card draw in the deck and so far that has been working perfectly fine for me. Early you trade 1-for-1. In the mid game you use board wipes to build up some card advantage and then late game the Inspirations refill your hand (and you can reuse them with Jace). Sire also gives you some card drawing when he hits the board, or forces the other guy to stop dropping lands, which is pretty strong.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 1:18 pm 
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(copy)

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Last edited by BounceBurnBuff on Sat Nov 21, 2015 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 1:18 pm 
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w6ire wrote:
The 1 Coastal Discovery was a test mainly to see if the Awaken was ever worth the sorcery speed. I don't think it has come up much and Inspiration is better so I can get behind that change.

And yes, those four slots are the only pure card draw in the deck and so far that has been working perfectly fine for me. Early you trade 1-for-1. In the mid game you use board wipes to build up some card advantage and then late game the Inspirations refill your hand (and you can reuse them with Jace). Sire also gives you some card drawing when he hits the board, or forces the other guy to stop dropping lands, which is pretty strong.


All ideal scenario stuff that's the problem. Couple of games I've done so far I'd have killed for a Telling Time or something to filter through the lands/dead draws. When it gets into swing though, this is a decent Esper Control shell, although all I have for the moment are 3 wins and one of those was 100 card Boros "aggro".

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:37 pm 
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read the bones and telling time are both better then inspiration


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:45 pm 
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read the bones and telling time are both better then inspiration



Telling Time might be better but Read the Bones is worse in a deck with counter spells due to being a sorcery.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 8:31 am 
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Is Hixus in a deck with Languish and Planar Outburst not a problem? Another mass removal sounds good but then he dies to the other 2 which just releases everything, then again Nullifier can use them cards but there's only one in your deck.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:06 am 
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Is Hixus in a deck with Languish and Planar Outburst not a problem? Another mass removal sounds good but then he dies to the other 2 which just releases everything, then again Nullifier can use them cards but there's only one in your deck.


He can just be flashed in as a 4/4 beat-stick too, so I somewhat see the reasoning. I'd argue Tragic Arrogance over Hixus though, since you could wipe an enemy walker away in some cases with no chance of them just "coming back" when Hixus bites it.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:52 am 
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I've personally had good success with Hixus, although I can see the possible appeal of Tragic Arrogance in that slot instead. I have rarely run into a situation where I needed to use another board wipe with Hixus still on the board and him holding other creatures in exile. He can be flashed in as a 4/4 even if there are no opposing attackers to exile and he does help fuel the single Nullifier, although getting 2 cards in exile isn't too much of a problem other ways.

Plus, he's a one-sided board wipe. He hits the other player's attacking creatures but doesn't remove any creatures that you may already have on the board. This is a benefit in some ways over Planar Outburst or Languish (although many of the threats in this deck can dodge one or both of those already).

I have made the following tweaks since the original post

-1 Necromantic Summons
-1 Coastal Discovery
-2 Inspiration
+3 Telling Time
+1 Archangel of Tithes

Currently sitting at around rank 20, but I have lost some games tinkering with other decks. I''ve only lost a handful with this one so far, a couple due to mana screw (including one game where I had 3 lands in my starting hand and then never drew a 4th despite holding out against an aggro deck for 12 turns) and one deck to a ramp deck that resolved Ulamog against me. Was seeing a lot of Boros aggro and RDW at the lower ranks. Starting to see a lot more green ramp decks and elf decks now.

We will see how this holds together at the mid ranks against more focused decks with more unlocked cards. It seems to have no problem with aggro decks (which are still super slow with BFZs card pool) and hopefully it will continue to fare okay against more midrange decks.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:12 pm 
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Last edited by CovertGo Blue on Sun Jan 03, 2016 2:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:43 pm 
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Last edited by InFaMoUsGeMiNi on Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:23 am, edited 5 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:11 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:23 am 
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yirkon wrote:


Not enough, that has become clear. Working on a revision that I hope to post by the end of the week. Suggestions are always welcome.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:22 am 
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@CovertGoBlue

If you can get Hedron Network going off viably, I'll be in your debt! The main situation I can see is using it vs a resolved Desolation Twin as a 2 for 1.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:47 pm 
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Ok so I have been having great success with this Esper build.
Went 11/2 with it on stream just now and the 2 losses I had could have been wins if I played it better. (I let stuff resolve that I shouldnt have... it was some really bad missplays)

http://www.twitch.tv/nevius22/b/683924475 for those interested! (The first couple matches some opponents got really mad and kept pausing the games, just fast forward when it happens)

Draw-Go Esper Control
2 x Felidar Cub
1 x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 x Celestial Flare
2 x Horribly Awry
3 x Telling Time
2 x Scatter to the Winds
4 x Spell Shrivel
2 x Complete Disregard
1 x Read the Bones
1 x Ulamog's Nullifier
3 x Inspiration
2 x Bone to Ash
2 x Languish
1 x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 x Hixus, Prison Warden
1 x Disciple of the Ring
2 x Planar Outburst
1 x Angelic Edict
1 x Ob Nixilis Reignited

-- 25 Land --
3 x Plains
3 x Island
3 x Swamp
2 x Shambling Vent
2 x Sunken Hollow
2 x Prairie Stream
2 x Drowned Catacomb
2 x Isolated Chapel
2 x Glacial Fortress
4 x Evolving Wilds


This is a really good esper build imo.
It's basically Coverts deck but optimized into a more draw-go style.
You can really play draw-go with this deck and it seems to have decent matchups against everything.
I'm gonna do a full write up on why certain cards are in / not in later.

Cheers

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