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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:39 am 
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I'm always game to finish Starstill as a small group, even if it's just you me TP and Mown. I am tempted to use the original Starstill as like, a guideline, and keep many of the cards, but do the rest of them in a more cohesive manner. Really my primary goals are to get it into NGA constructed and find art for it, because when I show it to people who don't really know Magic the lack of art is the first thing they notice.

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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:23 am 
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Sounds good to me. I don't really care about the art thing though. But the rest sounds like the best way to go at it.

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CotW is a method for ranking cards in increasing order of printability.

*"To YMTC it up" means to design cards that have value mostly from a design perspective. i.e. you would put them in a case under glass in your living room and visitors could remark upon the wonderful design principles, with nobody ever worring if the cards are annoying/pointless/confusing in actual play

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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 10:20 am 
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I'm not really interested in going back to the project unless we pretty much phoenix the whole thing and look at the fundamentals again, and start from there. I don't care to work on something I expect to turn out mediocre at best, even if that includes ignoring almost all effort put into it thus far.

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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 10:24 am 
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But your hair.

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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 10:34 am 
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I don't put any effort into my hair, if that is your implication.

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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 10:41 am 
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Lame

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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:08 pm 
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Mown wrote:
I'm not really interested in going back to the project unless we pretty much phoenix the whole thing and look at the fundamentals again, and start from there. I don't care to work on something I expect to turn out mediocre at best, even if that includes ignoring almost all effort put into it thus far.

That's fine with me but what are the fundamentals from which we should start? Besides one side desert one side ice.

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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:42 pm 
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Presumably the flavor, and I assume it would still be types matter. However, before making cards, I would like to know:
• Core mechanics
• Flavor and storyline
• Theme and aesthetics of the plane
• Mechanical themes and subthemes between regions and colors
• Limited staples, and cards for storytelling
Which I think needs to be opened for discussion and redone, and not tried to be tailored to whatever card we make along the way. Our keywords are weak, there is little in terms of mechanical identity, there's no consensus on what the different regions are and I could only tell you a rough outline of a rough outline of the plot, which amounts to "+1 moon" or something.

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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:18 am 
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I say we strip it down to the bones. Once the skeleton's taken shape, then we can flesh it out. A lot of that flesh'll end up being the stuff we already produced, but we have to be sure it fits onto our skeleton first.
The essentials are "types matter" and hot/cold world. I think the whole "advanced world that go starstilled" schtick is a good set up for this. The basic plot is worth keeping. I'd also keep the two set structure at least as far as the storyline is concerned. If Moonrise happens "off screen" so to speak, that's no big deal.
THe mechanical side's where we need to do some work. Themes first. Then we can worry about mechanics, archetypes and finally cards.

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Cato wrote:
CotW is a method for ranking cards in increasing order of printability.

*"To YMTC it up" means to design cards that have value mostly from a design perspective. i.e. you would put them in a case under glass in your living room and visitors could remark upon the wonderful design principles, with nobody ever worring if the cards are annoying/pointless/confusing in actual play

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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:19 am 
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Oh jeeze, I see that avatar and I think, "golly, Razorborne already made a reply!".

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Cato wrote:
CotW is a method for ranking cards in increasing order of printability.

*"To YMTC it up" means to design cards that have value mostly from a design perspective. i.e. you would put them in a case under glass in your living room and visitors could remark upon the wonderful design principles, with nobody ever worring if the cards are annoying/pointless/confusing in actual play

TPrizesW
TPortfolioW


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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:31 am 
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We can all tell you aren't razorborne because of capitalization.

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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 2:01 am 
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We can all tell you aren't razorborne because of capitalization.

You're right. I am more handsome.

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Cato wrote:
CotW is a method for ranking cards in increasing order of printability.

*"To YMTC it up" means to design cards that have value mostly from a design perspective. i.e. you would put them in a case under glass in your living room and visitors could remark upon the wonderful design principles, with nobody ever worring if the cards are annoying/pointless/confusing in actual play

TPrizesW
TPortfolioW


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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:04 am 
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Can I just say that I honestly don't think the type matters theme worked? Like at it's core it's pulled in 50 different directions. The only way to salvage it is to focus it by latching it onto our flavor. If Illpyre and Maraka got enchantments, Winterdark (cold side) could get artifacts. We could have the basic premise of the set mechanically be enchantments vs. artifacts.

The only part of our flavor that I didn't like was how Illpyre and Winterdark never interacted. Like yeah Aloise and Gruff were trying to raise a moon, but we didn't really have any effective world building to describe the plane from the perspective of the people living in it. There were some dragons, and they stopped the plane, and Our Heroes were on their way to make a moon to fix it. That much I get. I'm just saying, where were the wars? Where was the trading? Who were the key players on a civilizational scale? Who hated who? Basically we just had a bunch of lizards mucking around in the desert and some sketchy rogues being shady in the cold. I want there to be an impending revolution. I want towers to be raised and cities to fall. I want to give Aloise a setting befitting her majesty.

If we make the key selling point of the set hot side with enchantments wars against cold side with artifacts (bonus stars if we worked in snow like Lily intended) then it could solve both our focus problems by unifying them into a cohesive message.

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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:18 am 
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The only other option is to scrap the mechanical theme altogether and design it top down from the hot-cold theme

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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:48 pm 
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I'm not attached to type matters or anything, but I think it's a viable idea to explore, if done with forethought, and it sounds kind of fun. We will need some mechanics to differentiate between top and bottom either way, and I'm not against finding something else, but I don't have anything particular in mind that fits really well. You probably won't get me on board with snow, because snow isn't a good mechanic.

North/Center/South (Illpyre/Maraka/Frostwynd)
N: Exile (cremation), C: Alive, S: Graveyard
N: Temporary, S: Permanent
N: Religious, S: Scientific
N: Future, M: Present, S: Past (frozen)

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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:05 am 
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I must admit that the types-matter and hot/cold themes didn't jive well. There are 7 card types, but only two of hot and cold. If we abandon one, it should be the types-matter theme. Our world-building is much more closely tied to hot/cold. If we killed hot/cold we'd have to redo everything.
I think the lack of interaction between the sides was a good idea, at least for set 1. The overall story is about a divided world uniting, so they have to start out divided.

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Cato wrote:
CotW is a method for ranking cards in increasing order of printability.

*"To YMTC it up" means to design cards that have value mostly from a design perspective. i.e. you would put them in a case under glass in your living room and visitors could remark upon the wonderful design principles, with nobody ever worring if the cards are annoying/pointless/confusing in actual play

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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:46 am 
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This thread got to 200,000 views!!!! :party::angel::party:

Omenheim


Ok, so if we're going with Top-Down from the flavor we built, what ARE we going to use in terms of mechanics to tell that story?

How do we make Hot Temporary Religious Future vs. Cold Permanent Technology Past come thru in the cards?

Here are the words each side makes me think of:

Illpyre:
Brutal
Thirsty
Hot
Sand
Viashino
Elori
Sun
Tunnels? Subterranean Scrawlings hinted at a underground presence in Illpyre but we never expanded on it

Maraka:
Paradise
Beasts like unicorns Blooming Marlback is my favorite Maraka card
Earth alive like Gift of Maraka (which should really just be a normal enchantment instead of potentially being used as a curse)
Rivers
Crossroads
Mythic
Unknowable
Ripe for adventure

Omenheim:
Dark
Cold
Shelter
Mad lich Kings
Endless caverns
Mazes in ice
Collectors
Giant frost beasts
Vampires
Bats

How can we take those flavorful impressions and translate them into mechanics?

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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:08 pm 
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A WORLD SPLIT IN THREE.

{Sun} <Illpyre / Maraka / Omenheim> [moon]

If we're gonna have a world split between three settings, we're gonna have to define where each color's loyalties are most strongly propagated. (Which is not to say that cards will only appear in these colors in each setting. We actually have a lot of red spells in Omenheim so there's definitely headspace there. I'm just trying to get at the general feel, the guiding light, of the color alignment each region evokes.)

Illpyre is . Omenheim is . Maraka is . We know that much. But if we go deeper, Illpyre's third color, I think, would be , Omenheim's third color would be , and Maraka's second color would be , I guess? ? It didn't really have one.

But see, that doesn't work, because then we've got all the in Omenheim. We could argue that Illpyre's third color is , but then all the would be in Maraka. We need to spread our color mindspace out evenly among the colors. Basically, I'm seeing Maraka as kind of a environment, and the problem is that that's exactly what Illpyre's color code is already. Green already interacts with red and white enough in Illpyre for that to be the kind of direction we go in for Maraka.

One way to fix this problem is to make Maraka . I like this because Blood Grove Ancient is my favorite piece of flavor to come out of Maraka. The problem is it will make Maraka yet another place of strife and terror, while its purpose in the story is more as a sanctuary between worlds.

I think the better way to do it would be to really ramp up the in Maraka. Make there be lots of Merfolk, yeah? (We should call merfolk from Maraka Marakai so that it doesn't sound like Moroccans.) And have them all build on each other in a fun aggro-tempo kinda way. Maybe they synergize really well with auras/pump spells?

That would leave our color distribution basically as Naya in Illpyre, Esper in Omenheim, and Simic in Maraka…which looks, if you scope the back of a Magic card (or my signature!), a lot like the world Starstill brings us to.

ILLPYRE | MARAKA | OMENHEIM

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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 8:03 am 
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I don't know if I want to introduce a color imbalance between the sides. If there is one, it should be very slight, imho. I find it more interesting to showcase how the same color is represented differently in the two environments. Maybe you could have a very small RW/G/UB weighting, which seems like the clear strongest associations (Hot and Bright / Nature / Cold and Dark).
It would be cool if, during draft, the ally-color archetypes aligned to one area and the enemy-color ones belong to the other, as random musings.
Anyway, we're going to need to tackle mechanical, thematic, cultural and geographic differences between the two, as well as the story line. In what way do we want to proceed? Should we open a thread on each of them, or do them in order? If we want an overarching theme (e.g. set matters), do we establish that early, or after more flavorbuilding, as a top-down set?

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 Post subject: Re: Flavor
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:29 pm 
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Mown wrote:
It would be cool if, during draft, the ally-color archetypes aligned to one area and the enemy-color ones belong to the other, as random musings.

That would be super awesome. Definitely allied for Illpyre and enemy for Omenheim.

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