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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:09 am 
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The colour of Magic
In magic there are 5 colours each with their own flavour.
At the start of the game you choose any two-colour combination and are given a starter deck with these colour cards in which to duel.
The two colour card combinations are known in shorthand after the 10 guilds from Ravnica. Because Black and Blue both start with a 'B', blue is represented with a 'U'.
Guild | Colours | Initialism | Theme
Azorious | | U/W | Fliers
Boros | | R/W | Auras
Dimir | | B/U | Control
Golgari | | B/G | Graveyard
Gruul | | G/R | Mid-range stomp
Izzet | | U/R | Spell power
Orzhov | | B/W | Life gain/loss
Rakdos | | B/R | Steal and sacrifice
Selesnya | | G/W | Tokens
Simic | | U/G | Bounce and enter effects?


Which deck to pick?
All the initial decks are viable but you should probably start with something that corresponds to the way you would like to play.

Black
Sacrifice for tactical gain. An often seen ability is Deathtouch, and it features zombie tribal

Blue
Summon merfolk and faeries to control your opponents permanents. Flash is a common ability. A favourite of veteren magic players.

Green
Ramp to large creatures and crush your opponents with the power of the Forest. Featuring Trample and a favourite colour of newcomers.

Red
Attack quickly and burn your opponent using tribal Goblins. Haste is a common ability.

White
Hold ground with Soldiers then soar over you opponent with Angels. White protects its creatures and uses Lifelink to win the damage race.


Deck styles
Aggro
Aggro decks play cheap, efficient creatures quickly and attempt to reduce your life-total to zero in the early game. It uses spells to remove blockers, create more creatures, and burn its opponents life total.

Mid-range
Mid-range plays larger creatures than aggro decks and attempt to win in the mid game. They tend to want to gain some amount of life to blunt the aggro assault before playing a large blocker. They then attempt to overwhelm the other player with their larger creatures.

Control
Control is a late-game oriented strategy. It attempts to control the board state and minimise the amount of threats it is facing. It does this through spells that trade one-for-one such as permission or removal. The control player then pulls ahead drawing extra cards. Once it reaches enough mana, the control player resolves a threat that the other player will lose to if they don't find a way to deal with it.

Other deck styles which may be possible are aggro-control, aggro-combo, and combo but it's hard to tell at this stage if the card pool can support these types of strategies. Don't get stuck in your archetype even if you are playing an aggro deck in certain match ups you will be the control player, learn to recognise when your role changes.


Deck building – some rules of thumb
The minimum number of cards you can have in a deck is 60. Therefore, to have the best chance of drawing a card that you placed in your deck you should only run 60 cards. Of those cards about a third should be creatures, a third spells, and a third lands.

Figure out which colour side of the deck you like and work towards a mono-coloured deck. These will likely be the easiest to build for a new player while giving you a good chance of creating a powerful deck. Once you become a more experienced player dual-colour and even five-colour (rainbow) decks will be possible to construct.

An aggro is the easiest to build. You simply identify the most efficient creatures and spells and add them to you deck. It's also the best kind of deck to play when you don't know what the metagame looks like. Mid-range and especially control are harder to build correctly if you don't know what the main threats from other decks will be.
A bog-standard aggro deck contains: 10 one drops, 6 two drops, and 4 three drops. Have a look at what is available in the colour of your choice.

If you want to build a control deck you must keep the card pool and metagame in mind. If the metagame is creature heavy you need to skew your deck towards answering these threats. If the metagame is dominated by control, your permission must reflect this and the same with your win condition.
A bog-standard control deck will contain: 6 permission spells, 6 removal spells, and 6 draw spells.


The lay of the land – lessons from DotP
At minimum 14 sources of one colour give you a decent change to access it in the early game. Therefore, dual coloured decks should be running the 4 guildgates as well as 10 of each appropriate land. Three plus colour decks need to include the mana fixing ]artifacts and/or Green ramp spells.

Previous decks available in DotP have run comfortably on anywhere between 19-25 lands (in my experience). Assuming the power level of the available strategies is similar, this is likely to be the amount of lands you want to run.


The lay of the land – lessons from pauper
Pauper is a format that I like to play and it suffers from the same problem as DotP 2015, the lack of untapped dual lands. Guildgates allow colour fixing but come in to play tapped costing you a turn of available mana. Because of this downside to guildgates, the most powerful decks tend to be monocoloured. This may be the case in DotP 2015*. If you want to build a dual- or multicoloured deck there are three things to keep in mind: power, tempo, and synergy.

Power
The reason you add a second colour to a deck must be because it allows you to do something powerful that a mono-coloured deck will not. For example, Sanguine Bond is a powerful Black card that does very little by itself, but combined with the strong life-gain from White could lead to a good combo or aggro-combo Orzhov deck. On the other hand combining the aggro elements of White and Red into a Boros aggro deck is might be unlikely to result in a stronger deck then the mono-coloured options simply because the individual cards are not that powerful and their strength comes from playing them on curve.

Tempo
By using a guildgate you give up tempo or time to your opponent as you don't get to use that mana until your next untap phase. This tempo loss hits much harder on aggro decks that aim to win in the early game as it puts them a turn behind. Mid-range and control decks which are aiming to win in the mid and late stage can afford this tempo hit as they don't mind to much about falling behind in this area. They will do something later which makes up for the loss.

Synergy
Synergy is the hardest concept to explain. In pauper, the good multi-coloured aggro decks fix their mana base in a way that adds to their main strategy. Fixing still costs some tempo or card advantage, but this is mitigated by the gain they can derive. A deck called “Eye Candy” is an Izzet-coloured deck which uses cheap spells to pump a lethal Kiln Fiend. This deck can afford the tempo hit of a tapped land as its key creatures are played turns two and three (i.e., it can afford to skip turn one to do something more powerful later). Additionally, it plays cheap draw spells like Preordain and Ponder which allow it to look for Mountains, these cheap spells synergise with the central strategy of pumping Kiln Fiend allowing it to use them both for fixing and as part of the win condition.

Potential examples of synergy in DotP 2015
Looking over the card list (including expansion) two examples of potential synergy stand out to me Dimir artifacts and Golgari self-mill.
Dimir artifacts could fix with artifacts like Traveler's Amulet and Darksteel Ingot which interact favourably with Etherium Sculptor and Glaze Fiend. In Golgari self-mill the synergistic card is Satyr Wayfinder which would allow you to dig for a Swamp while at the same time potentially placing cards like Spider Spawning and Bloodghast in your graveyard. Time will tell if the cards available in the full pool will support these strategies.

*Forum user robotindisguise notes that without the premium or expansion content, mono-coloured decks may not be as powerful due to the lack of quality cards at all mana costs.


The defender's edge
Unlike other card games such as Hearthstone, in Magic the defender is the one given the choice about which creatures will fight. This can make attacking a risky proposition as you will often not know which of your creatures will return from battle unscathed. Sometimes you won't mind how your opponent blocks and be able to turn all your creatures sideways for the alpha-strike. At other times you may only be able to attack with your biggest creature as the block potential of your opponent could result in unprofitable trades for your smaller guys.

Evasion – overcoming the defenders edge
Each colour has a way to overcome the defenders edge and get in for damage regardless of the blockers your opponent may have. Keep an eye out for these powerful keywords and try them out in your deck.
Black: Intimidate – allows you to bypass certain types of blockers
Blue: Flying – allows you to go over the top of some blockers
Green: Trample – damage gets through on a big creature regardless of chump blocker
Red: Haste – prevents your opponent from setting up a blocker in anticipation of your attack
White: Flying - allows you to go over the top of some blockers
A list of keyword abilities and explanations can be found here.


Spells – instants and sorceries
In magic there are two similar spell types which seem similar but differ in important ways. Instants can be cast at anytime, including your opponents turn. Soceries can only be cast during your turn in one of your two main phases. The flexibility of instants makes them incredibly powerful, even if they often cost more than sorceries for the same effect. There are two times that are especially useful to cast instants in, the combat damage phase and on your opponents end step. Try to save instant for these times to get the most out of them.


Pre-sideboarding
A regular match of Magic is composed of three games. After the first game each player is allowed the opportunity to swap out up to 15 cards in order to help beat the particular strategy being played against. In DotP, there are no matches and no opportunity for sideboards, this means decks need to be pre-sideboarded against the strongest strategies in the metagame. For example, in DotP 2013 there were many powerful artifacts in certain decks that would win the game if unanswered. In that environment is was correct to run one or two cards that offered artifact destruction to give you 'outs' if your opponent managed to play them. In DotP 2014, the situation was less pronounced but often one artifact/enchantment destruction spell was correct (if available to your deck). From the card pool so far, a fair guess is that the metagame will be creature dominated. As such, you need to be main decking creature removal.

Your deck archetype should also pre-sideboard against the other potential archetypes it could run into. Aggro decks win the mirror by going bigger so should include two large creatures that will trump anything the opponent is trying to do. Pre-sideboarding against control looks harder given the available cards something like Angelic Accord is the type of card to use but it is only available to “White Life” style decks.


Controlling information
The amount of information you give your opponent is one of the aspects that can help you win more games of Magic. One thing you can do to limit your opponent's information is to play your cards at the last possible opportunity. As outlined in the instant or sorcery section, combat-related instants should be played after blockers are assigned to maximise their impact. Play creatures in your second main phase to control the information your opponent has access to when assigning blocks.

Advanced concepts

Card advantage
The ultimate idea behind card advantage is that as the game goes on the person who gets to see more cards in their deck becomes more likely to win. This is because they see more of their potent threats and have access to more answers to their opponents threats. A simple card to evaluate is Inspiration. You spend one card to get two more (a two-for-one). Casting Mind Rot can also be a two-for-one. You lose one card, but your opponent loses two. Finally, a sweeper like Planar Cleansing can generate a huge amount of card advantage. Your opponent loses all their non-land permanents at the cost of only a single card. Card advantage is a particularly important axis along which control decks operate but it is also worth thinking about in aggro and mid-range decks.

Tempo
One of the limits in Magic is that you may only play one land per turn. If we think of a "turn" as a unit of time "developing mana" and "tempo" are essentially synonymous. Decks that attack along the axis of tempo attempt to set their opponent back by wasting their mana. As mentioned earlier a land that enters the battlefield tapped is already a tempo hit to its controller as it doesn't allow them to use the mana it can generate until the next turn. Good ways to generate tempo are instant speed removal like Tribute to Hunger and Shock as well as bounce or tap effects such as Frost Lynx. A tempo advantage can win you the game before your opponent can establish a board presence. Aggro and mid-range decks are more concerned with generating and maintaining tempo than control decks.

Mana curve
Related to tempo is the concept of a mana curve. In order to efficiently use the mana you generate each turn, you need to be playing spells at a range of mana costs but more at the low end of the curve. A deck full of Elite Vanguard will beat a deck full of Griselbrand before the Griselbrand player can resolve a single creature.

Beats on the clock
One activity to perform as you are playing is to count the "clock" that you have on your opponent and that your opponent has on you. To do this you divide the number of life points left divided by the total power of all attackers. For example, at 20 life a 2/2 attacker has a 10 turn clock. At 15 life, two 2/2 attackers have a 4 turn clock. If you have less beats to kill your opponent than your opponent has to kill you, then you are ahead and you should keep attacking. If your opponent has less beats to kill you than you have to kill them, watch out. You may need to switch to chump blocking or use up some of your removal to buy more time
Who's the beatdown?
As you perform the beats on the clock calculation, who is ahead will change as the game goes on. It's important to correctly identify who is the beatdown in a particular phase of the duel. You will lose games if you get this wrong and misunderstand your current role.

Trading up
A further related idea is that of efficient mana use. While not as important as the other ideas trying to 'trade up' will help you increase your card quality in relation to your opponent. The idea behind this is fairly simple, the less mana you use to remove an opponent's threat in relation to the mana your opponent used to cast it the better. For example a Goblin Arsonist (one mana) can trade up by taking out a Grazing Gladehart (three mana). Alternatively, a Negate (two mana) can be traded for a Seance (four mana).

Can I get a do-over?
The mulligan is an incredibly important part of Magic. In DotP we get an advantage over regular Magic by getting one free mulligan. Use it well. In your opening hand you want access to all your mana colours and you want spells you can cast on the first few turns. A hand without lands or with too many lands and not enough cheap spells is an automatic mulligan. Aggro decks in particular need to mulligan hard to find their one-drops. A control deck can sometimes keep up to five lands and manage to draw out of it as tempo is less important for them. Remember that your draws are random. Look at your hand again those are the resources you know you will have access to. What is your plan if your next three draws are lands? If your hand is not looking so good anymore, take a mulligan and see if it improves.

Links to other guides
Useful comment/summary by Mwuanno.
Some tricky card interactions from DotP 2014 outlined.
Guide to playing control?
robvalue's brilliant guide to the original DotP and DotP 2012, some of the stuff applies to all games of Magic

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Last edited by Aught3 on Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:11 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:14 am 
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There was some interest in creating a guide for players new to DotP and to Magic in general. Hopefully this can serve as a baseline and other people can add to or correct it to suit the needs of new players.

I'm particularly interested in:
Relevant examples of the concepts from cards in the pool (I found it hard to write and look up cards at the same time so I didn't)
Anything I got wrong, even if it's just a difference in experience/opinion
Anything important that I missed, what should be added?
Feedback from players new to Magic/DotP about what was helpful and what else they would like to see
The order and layout (I just wrote in the order it came to me)
Comments on the idea of pre-sideboarding, I'm not a limited player and I think limited players may have a better insight on this than I do

I'm open to writing addendum or expanding/correcting as required. It would also be great if people could write up their own sections :D

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:24 am 
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Location: [loh-key-shuh n] n. A place of settlement, activity, or residence.
Good job. I really like the guide. Would really like to help and I may proffer some additions in the future, but at the moment I'm too tired to really get a mental grip on anything too complex. One note though; it's spelt "Ravnica."

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:25 am 
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Thanks, fixed 'Ravinica'.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:46 am 
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Location: [loh-key-shuh n] n. A place of settlement, activity, or residence.
Aught3 wrote:
Thanks, fixed 'Ravinica'.

That's actually how a lot of people pronounce it (and how I did before I knew better), it pisses hardcore lore buffs off no end. Hehe.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:21 am 
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Great guide! Some pointers:
-Angelic Accord (instead of Angelic Overture)
-Planar Cleansing is the relevant sweeper in DotP opposed to Mass Calcify
-You mention 'B', and 'U', but don't mention anything else related to those letters. Perhaps you could add these letters in parantheses behind the mana symbols of each guild?
-Are you sure Boros-aggro doesn't have enough power to give it merit over W-aggro? That statement seems a little premature.
-Perhaps you could add a short section or a link to an explanation of the most basic keywords? Like First Strike, Deathtouch, Vigilance, etc etc.
-I like that you advise players to build a monocolour deck, but you could add that they try dual-colours once they develop a basic grip on Magic.
-Perhaps adding a short description of each colour would help players in deciding which guild to start out with? (like, Black: Sacrifice for tactical gain. An often seen ability is Deathtouch, and it features zombie tribal). It's also possible to add descriptions for each of the guilds, but the starter decks don't differ much so monocolour explanations may be better (and are simpler to understand).
-On the topic of synergy, you could add an expample from DotP 2015. Like Sanguine Bonds+Lifegain (Lone Missionary), Cloudshift+EtB creature (Lone Missionary) or Spider Spawning+self-mill (Necromancer's Assistant).

Thank you for your efforts! Hope I helped :)


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:58 am 
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Good guide! Maybe it's an idea to give cardexamples when saying stuff like burn, permission and control or explain what X drop cards might be as not many will get the link between the word and a cards manacost.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:52 am 
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Left4Doner wrote:
Great guide! Some pointers:
-Angelic Accord (instead of Angelic Overture)
-Planar Cleansing is the relevant sweeper in DotP opposed to Mass Calcify
-You mention 'B', and 'U', but don't mention anything else related to those letters. Perhaps you could add these letters in parantheses behind the mana symbols of each guild?
-Are you sure Boros-aggro doesn't have enough power to give it merit over W-aggro? That statement seems a little premature.
-Perhaps you could add a short section or a link to an explanation of the most basic keywords? Like First Strike, Deathtouch, Vigilance, etc etc.
-I like that you advise players to build a monocolour deck, but you could add that they try dual-colours once they develop a basic grip on Magic.
-Perhaps adding a short description of each colour would help players in deciding which guild to start out with? (like, Black: Sacrifice for tactical gain. An often seen ability is Deathtouch, and it features zombie tribal). It's also possible to add descriptions for each of the guilds, but the starter decks don't differ much so monocolour explanations may be better (and are simpler to understand).
-On the topic of synergy, you could add an expample from DotP 2015. Like Sanguine Bonds+Lifegain (Lone Missionary), Cloudshift+EtB creature (Lone Missionary) or Spider Spawning+self-mill (Necromancer's Assistant).

Thank you for your efforts! Hope I helped :)


You did! I adopted most of your suggestions. I softened the statement around Boros aggro. I think I am probably right that it will not be as powerful as White Weenie or Goblin Tribal but only testing will tell for sure.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:54 am 
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Empo wrote:
Good guide! Maybe it's an idea to give cardexamples when saying stuff like burn, permission and control or explain what X drop cards might be as not many will get the link between the word and a cards manacost.


Yeah it sort of occurred to me while I was writing but it was a pain to go back and forth to check if the cards I was thinking of were in the pool. I started to go through and add examples but I'll have to finish it tomorrow.

The feedback is great so far guys, hopefully it is making the guide better.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:52 am 
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Thanks for the guide!

One thing I disagree on, though: two-coloured decks are likely to be stronger than monocoloured decks in this meta, because the smaller pool means that the relative power level of cards in a single colour is going to vary wildly. This isn't the case in Pauper, which due to the large pool has a much flatter power level at the top end, making monocoloured decks better for mana consistency reasons. A better comparison point would be Limited (sealed or draft), where playing two colours allows you to play with more powerful cards overall with only a minor consistency hit. Pointing new players at monocoloured decks will definitely result in worse decks while they're unlocking cards because they'll have to include unfocused chaff, and almost certainly result in worse decks once they have a complete set (ignoring the premium enablers, such as the paragons/hall).

IMO, concentrating on synergies in a two-colour pair will be the easiest route to victory. Listing those might be worthwhile (e.g. GW tokens, GB graveyard, WR auras).

(also, hi everyone! Been lurking a while. Looking forward to playing this on Steam :) )


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:06 am 
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Welcome! Only a few hours to go for steam!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:41 am 
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Great job Aught3! I think this should help newcomers quite a bit.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:15 pm 
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Thanks for the guide!

One thing I disagree on, though: two-coloured decks are likely to be stronger than monocoloured decks in this meta, because the smaller pool means that the relative power level of cards in a single colour is going to vary wildly. This isn't the case in Pauper, which due to the large pool has a much flatter power level at the top end, making monocoloured decks better for mana consistency reasons. A better comparison point would be Limited (sealed or draft), where playing two colours allows you to play with more powerful cards overall with only a minor consistency hit. Pointing new players at monocoloured decks will definitely result in worse decks while they're unlocking cards because they'll have to include unfocused chaff, and almost certainly result in worse decks once they have a complete set (ignoring the premium enablers, such as the paragons/hall).

IMO, concentrating on synergies in a two-colour pair will be the easiest route to victory. Listing those might be worthwhile (e.g. GW tokens, GB graveyard, WR auras).

(also, hi everyone! Been lurking a while. Looking forward to playing this on Steam :) )


Hmm, certainly something to think about. I thought limited players may have some good insights into the card pool and what it will mean for the meta. I think the way I described it made it clear I wasn't pointing to adding chaff just to make their starter deck mono-coloured but to add good cards of the appropriate colour as they unlocked them over time. I like the idea of adding the synergies, but I'll call them themes since I already used synergy in a slightly different context.

My attempts at deck building were from the full card list including premium unlocks and some expansion content so that may have ... ahem ... coloured my impression of the power level of mono-coloured decks. I'll see what I can add to the guide that will suggest this possibility.

As an extra note it would be great if people could test non-premium mono-coloured decks and compare how they feel compared to dual-coloured lists in terms of power level.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:51 pm 
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To be fair, the pool doesn't have that much chaff compared to a standard limited set (most of it starts in your deck, it seems), but it does have a lot of cards that are intended for certain themes/archetypes. For example, Kraken Hatchling is terrible in any sort of aggressive blue deck (such as default UR), but is much better when combined with fliers (default UW) or a more controlling build (default UB). From the recent AMA, I got the impression that the base pool is pushing guild pairs, and the premium pool is intended to open things up to monocolour and 3+ colours.

The archetypes that I think are missing from/uncertain in your list are:
UW - Fliers (solid ground defense and evasion)
UR - Tempo (aggressive creatures backed up by cheap disruption and burn to clear a path)
UG - Self-bounce, Enters-the-battlefield triggers (e.g. Species Gorger + Elvish Visionary)
BR - Steal & sacrifice (e.g. Act of Treason + Corpse Blockade)

Still not sure about GR - I think this is meant to be ramp, or possibly just midrange. It's not at all clear :(
UB might also be more specialised than just "control" (seems very broad compared to the other themes). I'd have to check the pool again.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:05 pm 
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I had been saying someone needed to make this thread...glad it didn't have to be me,lol.

It touches on the basics. There are more playstyles than you mentioned, my niche for one, but you touched on what new players need to know and that's what is important. Don't want to add too much for them to absorb.

So excellent job.

U/B is more Counter Trick than any other term, to join the previous statement. It's why it's fun on it's own level.

My style is 'Counter Defensive". It has elements of control, but is actually slower. It works to counter whatever the meta decks are. Many would find my style boring to play and frustrating to play against.


2014 deck most like my style is Enchanter's Arsenal.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:01 am 
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Hi,
I am new to magic and from that perspective, this is a really handy piece of work. At least a lot of the basics are succintly explained and it helps being a very quick read too. So kudoa on that. I got one question and 1 suggestion:
1. What is "pauper"? Might be the most obvious and hence the silliest question to ask but like I said, I am new :)
2. Can some of the most popular decks be links? Actual examples for each of the 10 guilds or something along those lines which identifies what newbies like me could play. It would be a great place to start off deck building for newcomers. I know there are exclusive threads for each combination but I just thought that given this is the guide, some role model decks would fit in ideally

Peace
Ananth


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:03 am 
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Quote:
1. What is "pauper"? Might be the most obvious and hence the silliest question to ask but like I said, I am new :)


Pauper is a format created for MTGO (I believe), but is also played in paper, where you only play common cards.

Quote:
Pauper is a Magic Online format in which all cards used must have been printed at the common rarity in a Magic Online set or product. Common promo cards are only legal if the card has been printed at the common rarity in a set or product. Other than that, the usual rules for Constructed decks apply (a minimum deck size of 60 cards in the main deck, an optional 15-card sideboard, and so on). If a common version of a particular card was ever released on Magic Online, any versions of that card printed at other rarities are also legal in this format.


Quote:
2. Can some of the most popular decks be links? Actual examples for each of the 10 guilds or something along those lines which identifies what newbies like me could play. It would be a great place to start off deck building for newcomers. I know there are exclusive threads for each combination but I just thought that given this is the guide, some role model decks would fit in ideally


There's a whole subform for that! It's got each color combo in it's own thread.

As to which of each build is the best...that's really more opinion here.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:53 am 
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@NeoSilk
Thanks for the clarifications. My aim behind the popular decks question was to get a feel of the most popular decks - like I see names like dredge, token decks etc etc. I just wanted to understand them. But I will go through the forum threads to get a feel of what are the good decks and why.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:41 am 
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Cannon - are you talking about Duels, or Magic in general?
In duels (my opinion) the most popular are :w::g: token (decks that create a bunch of token creatures that), :u::w: control (decks that prevent your opponent from being able to do much, if anything). There are some decent :r: and :r::w: aggro decks (decks that have lots of speed to try and kill before your opponent is able to do much) and the spawning decks (decks built around getting creatures into the graveyard, and then getting them back, or using Spider Spawning to create tokens).
There's a ton of other ones out there as well.

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