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 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:08 pm 
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I would be willing to run Dimir vs 13 of the 21 decks, and maybe against a 14th, and say it has a fair matchup. That still doesn't make it that good. It's start is a little too slow, and you have to be on the play in some matchups. It's spot it fine where it is, because I can say better things about the other decks. The real fact of the matter is that there isn't a matchup outside of mono green where Dimir really dominates, until you get down to lower tier 3. That is the reason I say Yertle's list is fine.

Firewave doesn't really have that good of a shot versus deadwalkers. Yes in theory it does....... but not in reality. Deadwalkers recursion ruins your day in 3 out of 4 matchups, and deadwalkers is faster.

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 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:17 pm 
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I think Chant is a touch too high, and I think SotS is a tad too low. Solid list, though.

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 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:19 pm 
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dh50 wrote:
It doesn't really matter to me either way since it's just a random tier list, but in my experience, if MD can survive an early aggro rush, it will usually win. Most of tier one can beat it relatively easily (because tier one is the aggro tier) but most of tier 2 can't. The 3 toughness issue hasn't been a big deal to me; there are a lot of cards that can deal with it, and I'd prefer to play MD vs. a deck with heavy hitters instead of an aggro deck. Still, there are a lot of different MD builds and one person's experience isn't easily replicated, I guess. I can see mjack's point about it being tier 3 since he runs Moroii. It surprises me that someone who doesn't run Moroii would rank it that low though.


It's not "some random list" I'm not saying it's perfect but I do spend a lot of time playing this game and have a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about. I've played MD quite a few different ways there is no way to run it where it is anything but tier 3. I'm sure you can take it online and beat randoms with it who are playing tier 2 or even tier 1 decks. But DotP is marketed to a lot of first time magic players and as a result the skill level of the median player is quite low. If you believe MD should be tier 2 then pick any tier 2 deck and I'll play you with it best of 9.

  • Tier 2.0
    1. Chant of the Mul Daya
    2. Sylvan Might
    3. Enchanter's Arsenal
  • Tier 2.1
    1. Warsmith
    2. Lords of Darkness
  • Tier 2.2
    1. Guardian's of Light
    2. Sword of the Samurai
    3. Hall of Champions

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 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:22 pm 
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Hakeem928 wrote:
I think Chant is a touch too high, and I think SotS is a tad too low. Solid list, though.


How's this?

1v1 Single Game Deck Tiers

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 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:23 pm 
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If you believe MD should be tier 2 then pick any tier 2 deck and I'll play you with it best of 9.


The obvious choice is Guardians of Light. However, that doesn't prove anything. As previously stated, I would take the same offer and pick Deadwalkers.

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 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:46 pm 
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mjack33 wrote:
If you believe MD should be tier 2 then pick any tier 2 deck and I'll play you with it best of 9.


The obvious choice is Guardians of Light. However, that doesn't prove anything. As previously stated, I would take the same offer and pick Deadwalkers.


That matchup is close and I don't like playing GL but I still think I would win best of 9. MD gets a lot of rage quits from new players but it just isn't that strong of a deck. You really have to bank on your opponent making a fairly major mistake in order to win with it and against competent players that just doesn't happen all that often.

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 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:49 pm 
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Honestly, I could have said "Bant". Dimir vs Bant is actually a hilarious matchup sometimes.

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 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:53 pm 
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I laid out the challenge because I'm honestly fine with playing any of the tier 2 decks against MD.
That isn't the case with all the tier 3 decks vs tier 2 decks but it is the case with MD.

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 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:55 pm 
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dh50 wrote:
It doesn't really matter to me either way since it's just a random tier list, but in my experience, if MD can survive an early aggro rush, it will usually win. Most of tier one can beat it relatively easily (because tier one is the aggro tier) but most of tier 2 can't. The 3 toughness issue hasn't been a big deal to me; there are a lot of cards that can deal with it, and I'd prefer to play MD vs. a deck with heavy hitters instead of an aggro deck. Still, there are a lot of different MD builds and one person's experience isn't easily replicated, I guess. I can see mjack's point about it being tier 3 since he runs Moroii. It surprises me that someone who doesn't run Moroii would rank it that low though.
The 3 builds I like are: Discard/tempo Rats, Moroii/Sleep 'aggro', Combo ETB Lockdown. The discard build has really puny creatures, the Moroii builds don't bring enough synergy and the combo builds are slow. Its the most talked about deck on the forums so it is what it is at this point.

I'm from the 'Show-me' state so I hesitate to list the 'pile of green cards' with the rest of the tier 3 decks until I get to sink my teeth into it. You see people defending most/all of the lower tier decks but I haven't really seen anyone defend that one.


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 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:14 pm 
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Hakeem928 wrote:
I think Chant is a touch too high, and I think SotS is a tad too low. Solid list, though.


How's this?

1v1 Single Game Deck Tiers


SotS > GoL > HoC
EtD > SH

Really nitpicking here, but those are my opinions.

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 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:17 pm 
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dh50 wrote:
It doesn't really matter to me either way since it's just a random tier list, but in my experience, if MD can survive an early aggro rush, it will usually win. Most of tier one can beat it relatively easily (because tier one is the aggro tier) but most of tier 2 can't. The 3 toughness issue hasn't been a big deal to me; there are a lot of cards that can deal with it, and I'd prefer to play MD vs. a deck with heavy hitters instead of an aggro deck. Still, there are a lot of different MD builds and one person's experience isn't easily replicated, I guess. I can see mjack's point about it being tier 3 since he runs Moroii. It surprises me that someone who doesn't run Moroii would rank it that low though.


It's not "some random list" I'm not saying it's perfect but I do spend a lot of time playing this game and have a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about. I've played MD quite a few different ways there is no way to run it where it is anything but tier 3. I'm sure you can take it online and beat randoms with it who are playing tier 2 or even tier 1 decks. But DotP is marketed to a lot of first time magic players and as a result the skill level of the median player is quite low. If you believe MD should be tier 2 then pick any tier 2 deck and I'll play you with it best of 9.

  • Tier 2.0
    1. Chant of the Mul Daya
    2. Sylvan Might
    3. Enchanter's Arsenal
  • Tier 2.1
    1. Warsmith
    2. Lords of Darkness
  • Tier 2.2
    1. Guardian's of Light
    2. Sword of the Samurai
    3. Hall of Champions


MotD destroys CotMD. Other than that, I agree. In a truly competitive setting, MotD is lacking.

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 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:07 pm 
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dh50 wrote:
I am surprised that Masks of the Dimir is ranked so low; for me it's been a solidly mid-tier deck - far better than UB, FW, HC, and SS.

And for once I actually agree with mjack and think Hall of Champions is probably tier 3. I love playing the deck, but it is far too easily derailed by mana issues - and it has these problems more than the other 3 color decks. I actually think SH is consistently a better deck than HC - it has better removal, fewer mana issues, and haste (though both decks are pretty bad). HC is unquestionably more fun to play, but I'd be surprised if anyone who kept track of their winning percentage with the deck found it to be much over 50%.


To make a couple more points from my view on HoC. I have very, very rarely had mana issues so maybe why my love of it's playability exists. I must admit sometimes when I draw into a Warmonk I don't always want him at the time and would rather have an exalted trigger, but in the long run I'm still glad he was there to chump and gain life if necessary or to gain trigger from Sublime.
Maybe it's the way I styled it to run also knowing that aggressive mulligans are part of the key to a good game that has kept me happy, I don't know.
So one more shout out for it as I ran a 8-2 in Hakeems best of challenge out of the box.
That's much better than just over 50%

I will stop being a cheerleader now. Rah!

Edit: I could post my build again in the thread and open up discussion on how mine runs.

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 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:28 am 
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Yeah, with 4 terramorphics and the two landcycles you don't really need any more land fixing in HoC. Nothing but a few white spells takes more than 2 of any 1 color. Top 2nd tier in 1v1 IMHO.


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 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:32 am 
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And I'm sorry but without either a god hand or ALL of your discard Dimir does not beat Mul Daya on a normal basis. You might get your singleton Reins of Powered every once in a great while but normally Mul Daya is already so ahead on life he can survive.


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 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:46 am 
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The problem isn't spells requiring two colors. The problem is spells requiring all 3. Let us go over a list of the good cards in the bant deck real quick. The ones I am worried about taking over a game.

3 rhox charger
4 rhox war monk
2 finest hour
2 jhessian infiltrator
1 jenara, asura of war
1 rafiq of the many
2 sublime archangel

3 things I notice immediately.

1. 10 of those 15 cards require all 3 colors.
2. All those cards need you to have a ton of creatures on the field to be effect a lot of games. There isn't really an option to not overextend here.
3. This deck only really attacks with one creature. Rhox Charger is your only reliable way to force damage through without flying, and versus flying decks that's not a guarantee either.

While there are ways to get around these issues, this is still the only deck in game where I actually lose due to color screw on a very very regular. Not mana screw but color screw. The other 3 color decks don't have that issue. I don't get color screwed in dragons, and I don't get color screwed in slivers. And my definition of color screw isn't missing a color for a while and playing around it. My definition of color screw is I mulliganed twice and I only got to play 2 cards all game because that third color I need never showed up. With 26 lands and both cyclers in the deck, this is still a very real issue. Now, once you get past that issue, I have to deal with my creatures getting chump blocked. All day long. Because this is an exalted deck. And exalted has that problem. So everything with evasion immediately merits a look. Because it has evasion. You know what the trouble is? A lot of the exalted things don't have evasion. And that's most of your early, not requiring 3 colors stuff. Throw in that monster destruction and field wipes magically exist everywhere, and this really has some problems. I'm sorry if people don't like to hear this being beaten to death, but when I am confident I can go up against a deck best 2 out of 3 with 15 out of 19 decks in the game, and not have to worry very much, in 1v1, the deck has issues that can't be glossed over by how well it does when it's issues don't flair up.



Edit: And I don't know what ^^ is playing but 4 moroii is enough for that matchup to be considered in Dimir's favor when comnbined with the discard, the stall, the copying stuff, the bounce, the 6 mana bombs, and tons of other things.

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 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:20 am 
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CotMD empties its own hand quickly while ramping, so the targetted discard hurts them way more. Then there's Evil Twin, Spinal Embrace, Beacon of Unrest, and Stolen Identity to take it home. Whenever I play MotD against CotMD, I do well.

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 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:32 pm 
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Maybe we can get a summary of results from people tracking their records with that excel sheet. That seems to be the easiest way to come up with a tier list. Obviously there will be differences due to build etc., but that should be negligible if we can average results over a number of players.


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 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:55 am 
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Here's my win/loss from my spreadsheet:

Deck|Win|Loss|Percentage
DeadWalker | 65 | 17 | 79.27%
Avacyn's Glory | 58 | 16 | 78.38%
Lords of Darkness | 65 | 25 | 72.22%
Firewave | 66 | 27 | 70.97%
Mind Maze | 43 | 21 | 67.19%
Chant Daya | 41 | 22 | 65.08%
Hall Of Champions | 29 | 17 | 63.04%
Dodge and Burn | 41 | 26 | 61.19%
Sylvan Might | 28 | 18 | 60.87%
Sword of the Samurai | 22 | 15 | 59.46%
Mask Dimir | 74 | 57 | 56.49%
Guardians of Light | 46 | 36 | 56.10%
Dracomancer | 39 | 32 | 54.93%
Sliver Hive | 40 | 37 | 51.95%
Hunter Strength | 33 | 32 | 50.77%


Edit: This is only 1v1, of course

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 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:27 am 
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NeoSilk wrote:
Here's my win/loss from my spreadsheet:

Deck|Win|Loss|Percentage
DeadWalker | 65 | 17 | 79.27%
Avacyn's Glory | 58 | 16 | 78.38%
Lords of Darkness | 65 | 25 | 72.22%
Firewave | 66 | 27 | 70.97%
Mind Maze | 43 | 21 | 67.19%
Chant Daya | 41 | 22 | 65.08%
Hall Of Champions | 29 | 17 | 63.04%
Dodge and Burn | 41 | 26 | 61.19%
Sylvan Might | 28 | 18 | 60.87%
Sword of the Samurai | 22 | 15 | 59.46%
Mask Dimir | 74 | 57 | 56.49%
Guardians of Light | 46 | 36 | 56.10%
Dracomancer | 39 | 32 | 54.93%
Sliver Hive | 40 | 37 | 51.95%
Hunter Strength | 33 | 32 | 50.77%


Edit: This is only 1v1, of course


Thanks for sharing Neo. Are those wins and losses only representing your result, or have you marked a win for whatever deck you were using and a loss for the deck your opponent was using?
EDIT: OK, it's obvious it's just your results, as the wins and losses aren't equivalent.

Aside from Firewave (which is higher than I would've thought) and perhaps GoL and Mind Maze (lower) those decks are about where I'd expect them to be.


Last edited by N1v_M1zzet on Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:18 pm 
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OMG Neo! No 90%?


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