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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:03 pm 
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Hello Duelers,

I am back with your weekly installment, and as I warned last week I have almost no results to provide. If this is your first time reading my posts, I try to discuss the metagame a bit more in depth and from a competitive angle. I usually do this by sharing what decks I play, their win/loss record, and what I have been running into.

This week is strange because I honestly had no time for Dueling. I had to go to Las Vegas for most of the week. The most "magical" thing that happened to me was that I sat next to Eric Froehlich (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Froehlich), the current #1 ranked Magic player on Earth, on his flight back from Vegas after his 2nd place finish at GP Detroit. I was disappointed that he didn't have Magic Duels on his phone...just kidding, I was not surprised.

So what to write about? Today I want to share something I learned from my favorite Magic book - Next Level Deckbuilding by Patrick Chapin (http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/nextlevel/). Patrick writes about using a list of questions to better understand a format. I did this after the release of Duels Origins, but I thought I would do it again here on the forum, with all of you. This checklist gives us a birds-eye view of the format and can help us understand which colors/cards/decks/archetypes will be strong. If you guys enjoy it, we can do it again whenever a set releases. As I answer the questions, please feel free to post opinions, ideas, or bring up things I may have missed.

Q1 - What are the most dominant creatures?

Topan Freeblade, Nantuko Husk, Elite Vanguard, Whirler Rogue, Kytheon's Irregulars, Priest of the Blood Rite, Abbot of Keral Keep, Disciple of the Ring, Erebos's Titan, Embermaw Hellion, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Thopter Engineer, Kird Chieftain, Dwynen, Gilt-Leaf Daen, Gatecreeper Vine, Gaea's Revenge, Lys Alana Huntmaster, Outland Colossus, Sunblade Elf, Woodland Bellower, Citadel Castellan, Bounding Krasis, Shaman of the Pack, Zendikar Incarnate, Perlous Myr, Chief of the Foundry


Once you understand what the most dominant creatures are, you can better judge the effectiveness of all the removal spells you are considering. As an example, I always see posts where some courageous members of the community run the numbers to see what percentage of creatures are killed by Reave Soul, or Gilt-Leaf Winnower. I do read and appreciate their work, but what is even better is if you make a list of what you consider the best creatures in the format and see how effective the removal is against THOSE creatures. Remember, we rarely want to remove EVERYTHING, we usually want to remove THE BEST THING, and I see most of the best or most-commonly-played-against targets on the list above. Gilt-Leaf kills something like 34% of the creatures in the game, but it actually kills 46% of the creatures listed above, a notable increase that may influence if you want to play da' Winnower.

Q2 - What is the CHEAP removal?

Celestial Flare, Reprisal, Claustrophobia, Disperse, Anchor the Aether, Bone Splinters, Fleshbag Marauder, Eyeblight Assassin, Reave Soul, Exquisite Firecraft, Fiery Impulse, Twinbolt


How do these spells line up against the creatures from question one? Which color has the most? If you are building a control deck, this information is very important.

Q3 - What are the Mass Removal effects?

Chandra's Ignition, Languish, Tragic Arrogance, Displacement Wave


It is always important to understand when and what to play around in regards to mass removal. It is one of the most common ways to swing the momentum of the game.

Q4 - What library manipulation exists? *this can be looked at as favorably manipulating your own deck or disrupting the opponent's*

Sigiled Starfish, Telling Time, Sphinx's Tutelage, Talent of the Telepath, Bitter Revelation, Read the Bones, Shadows of the Past, Nissa's Revelation


Slim pickin's, and almost all blue and black. Very few ways to actually mill if we want to, but then again, Tutelage is so good you only need one.

Q5 - What tutoring is available?

Boonweaver Giant, Heliod's Pilgrim, Totem-Guide Hartebeest, Evolutionary Leap, Woodland Bellower


Tutoring being limited means we have to play more cards in multiples (if possible with rarity restrictions) and we need more redundant effects (cards that do similar things) to make sure we have a removal or threat effect when we need it.

Q6 - How can people get card advantage?

Reclusive Artificer, Possessed Skaab, Woodland Bellower, Reclamation Sage, Valeron Wardens, Nissa, Vastwood Seer, Nissa's Revelation, Elvish Visionary, Llanowar Empath, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Abbot of Keral Keep, Read the Bones, Gravedigger, Deadbridge Shaman, Bitter Revelation, Whirler Rogue, Tower Geist, Thopter Spy Network, Inspiration, Jhessian Thief, Artificer's Epiphany


Notice anything odd? Most of the cards mentioned are creatures. Something else odd? Almost none of them are better than a two-for-one trade. Wizards seems to have intentionally made this game less about card advantage (once the Magic strategist's holy grail) and more about card quality. For those of you who really love any card that reads "Draw two cards" consider a card like Whirler Rogue vs a card like Inspiration. Both are 4 mana. Both are essentially two for ones, you pay four mana and one card to get two more cards. The difference is, one card gives you 4 power on the battlefield split up over three creatures, and the other gives you two random cards in your hand. What are the odds that the two random cards in your hand are more useful or powerful then the 4 power on the battlefield? On turn four, the answer is clear, it is better to have the power on the battlefield. On turn ten, it depends what you draw, but if you take the time to do the math (NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!) it is often correct that the 4 power on the battlefield divided amongst three creatures is stronger then the two cards you drew combined. Most of the time, Whirler Rogue will be a better card, but I see so many "old school" players jamming 4 Inspiration and zero Whirler Rogue, then talking about being a control deck as if that makes Whirler Rogue worse. Food for thought....

Q7 - What mana acceleration is there?

Knight of the White Orchid, Animist's Awakening, Mwonvuli Acid-Moss, Nissa's Pilgrimage, Meteorite


Not much - it is situational and expensive, or narrow (like Nissa's Pilgrimage only fetching Forests). I hope this gets better by the time Battle for Zendikar comes around, I want to cast big monsters!

Q8 - What counter magic exists?

Countermand, Bone to Ash, Calculated Dismissal, Disciple of the Ring


If you are a long-time blue mage, this is tough to take. On top of that, they threw in some can't be countered spells like Gaea's Revenge and Exquisite Firecraft. You are being told that playing a deck of all counterspells is a bad idea, you don't have to like it but you should listen to what the cards are telling you.

Q9 - Do people use their graveyards?

Um....yes!

Auramancer, Disciple of the Ring, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, Corpse Hauler, Cruel Revival, Despoiler of Souls, Erebos's Titan, Gravedigger, Graveblade Marauder, Liliana, Heretical Healer, Necromantic Summons, Shadows of the Past, Gather the Pack, Possessed Skaab


In fact, the yard is the best place to tutor in this game. You may not get to search your library for any creature you want, but you get to search your graveyard and sometimes your opponent's graveyard for power, utility or value. The right mix of graveyard effects is a critical part of any black-based control deck.

Q10 - What are the most dominating artifacts?

Perilous Myr, Perilous Myr, Perilous Myr, Chief of the Foundry, Thopter Engineer, Esperzoa, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Whirler Rogue


Perilous Myr, of all the great card choices they made, why did they have to add that one? It's not that I think it is OP, unless OP means "over-played" to you, I just don't like cheap-but-useful artifacts that fill out every single deck. Why not make a card like Myr, but make it Black, or Red, or Green? Then at least not every single deck would shove it in. Anyway, /end rant. What you can take from this is that the dangerous artifacts are all creatures, so you don't need dedicated artifact removal because your creature removal will do the job.

OK, those are the first ten questions. There are actually around 15 more, and if you guys are enjoying this entry I'll keep going down the list throughout the week with my comments. Please chime in, let me know what you think of my selections, and what you would do differently. Does this help you think about the format? Is it useful? Let me know.

Will anyone give a crap about this week's content? Will I actually get to play some games and have results for you next week? Will Abzanchantments last more than a week and become a real deck? Tune in next week for another Duels Diaries :)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:57 pm 
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Covert, gosh as ever amazed so please do continue. It's nice to to see what are sensible questions, the trick is to spot what is needed and why. I think some of your pointers will also help deck builders and in particular those that like control or particular colours. It may be a question of liking or lumping it but of course nothing is ever static for long and even while the meta is maybe still settling down in different platforms due in part to the player base but also staggered release it's coming closer to the next release when it will be back to the lab again.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:10 pm 
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Thank you for doing this. For less experienced players (like me) it's very nice to not always need to attempt to re-invent the wheel. I also have learned a lot from your logical approach to the game (for instance your post on the "to chump or not to chump - that is the question" thread).

As to the list of dominant cards, I wonder whether Consul's Lieutenant, Undercity Troll, Murk Lurker and Foundry Street Denizen may not deserve spots on the list? The troll seems to invariably draw removal if the opponent has it when played as a two drop, and sometimes even over what I would think to be more dangerous threats, and I'm not sure Twin Bolt would be as ubiquitous as it is if Consul's Lieutenant and Foundry Street Denizen were not around.

Also, if Disperse is considered cheap removal, then perhaps Frost Lynx and Harbinger of the Tide should be as well?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:47 pm 
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Hello Duelers,

I am back with your weekly installment, and as I warned last week I have almost no results to provide. If this is your first time reading my posts, I try to discuss the metagame a bit more in depth and from a competitive angle. I usually do this by sharing what decks I play, their win/loss record, and what I have been running into.

This week is strange because I honestly had no time for Dueling. I had to go to Las Vegas for most of the week. The most "magical" thing that happened to me was that I sat next to Eric Froehlich (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Froehlich), the current #1 ranked Magic player on Earth, on his flight back from Vegas after his 2nd place finish at GP Detroit. I was disappointed that he didn't have Magic Duels on his phone...just kidding, I was not surprised.

So what to write about? Today I want to share something I learned from my favorite Magic book - Next Level Deckbuilding by Patrick Chapin (http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/nextlevel/). Patrick writes about using a list of questions to better understand a format. I did this after the release of Duels Origins, but I thought I would do it again here on the forum, with all of you. This checklist gives us a birds-eye view of the format and can help us understand which colors/cards/decks/archetypes will be strong. If you guys enjoy it, we can do it again whenever a set releases. As I answer the questions, please feel free to post opinions, ideas, or bring up things I may have missed.

Q1 - What are the most dominant creatures?

Topan Freeblade, Nantuko Husk, Elite Vanguard, Whirler Rogue, Kytheon's Irregulars, Priest of the Blood Rite, Abbot of Keral Keep, Disciple of the Ring, Erebos's Titan, Embermaw Hellion, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Thopter Engineer, Kird Chieftain, Dwynen, Gilt-Leaf Daen, Gatecreeper Vine, Gaea's Revenge, Lys Alana Huntmaster, Outland Colossus, Sunblade Elf, Woodland Bellower, Citadel Castellan, Bounding Krasis, Shaman of the Pack, Zendikar Incarnate, Perlous Myr, Chief of the Foundry


Once you understand what the most dominant creatures are, you can better judge the effectiveness of all the removal spells you are considering. As an example, I always see posts where some courageous members of the community run the numbers to see what percentage of creatures are killed by Reave Soul, or Gilt-Leaf Winnower. I do read and appreciate their work, but what is even better is if you make a list of what you consider the best creatures in the format and see how effective the removal is against THOSE creatures. Remember, we rarely want to remove EVERYTHING, we usually want to remove THE BEST THING, and I see most of the best or most-commonly-played-against targets on the list above. Gilt-Leaf kills something like 34% of the creatures in the game, but it actually kills 46% of the creatures listed above, a notable increase that may influence if you want to play da' Winnower.

Q2 - What is the CHEAP removal?

Celestial Flare, Reprisal, Claustrophobia, Disperse, Anchor the Aether, Bone Splinters, Fleshbag Marauder, Eyeblight Assassin, Reave Soul, Exquisite Firecraft, Fiery Impulse, Twinbolt


How do these spells line up against the creatures from question one? Which color has the most? If you are building a control deck, this information is very important.

Q3 - What are the Mass Removal effects?

Chandra's Ignition, Languish, Tragic Arrogance, Displacement Wave


It is always important to understand when and what to play around in regards to mass removal. It is one of the most common ways to swing the momentum of the game.

Q4 - What library manipulation exists? *this can be looked at as favorably manipulating your own deck or disrupting the opponent's*

Sigiled Starfish, Telling Time, Sphinx's Tutelage, Talent of the Telepath, Bitter Revelation, Read the Bones, Shadows of the Past, Nissa's Revelation


Slim pickin's, and almost all blue and black. Very few ways to actually mill if we want to, but then again, Tutelage is so good you only need one.

Q5 - What tutoring is available?

Boonweaver Giant, Heliod's Pilgrim, Totem-Guide Hartebeest, Evolutionary Leap, Woodland Bellower


Tutoring being limited means we have to play more cards in multiples (if possible with rarity restrictions) and we need more redundant effects (cards that do similar things) to make sure we have a removal or threat effect when we need it.

Q6 - How can people get card advantage?

Reclusive Artificer, Possessed Skaab, Woodland Bellower, Reclamation Sage, Valeron Wardens, Nissa, Vastwood Seer, Nissa's Revelation, Elvish Visionary, Llanowar Empath, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Abbot of Keral Keep, Read the Bones, Gravedigger, Deadbridge Shaman, Bitter Revelation, Whirler Rogue, Tower Geist, Thopter Spy Network, Inspiration, Jhessian Thief, Artificer's Epiphany


Notice anything odd? Most of the cards mentioned are creatures. Something else odd? Almost none of them are better than a two-for-one trade. Wizards seems to have intentionally made this game less about card advantage (once the Magic strategist's holy grail) and more about card quality. For those of you who really love any card that reads "Draw two cards" consider a card like Whirler Rogue vs a card like Inspiration. Both are 4 mana. Both are essentially two for ones, you pay four mana and one card to get two more cards. The difference is, one card gives you 4 power on the battlefield split up over three creatures, and the other gives you two random cards in your hand. What are the odds that the two random cards in your hand are more useful or powerful then the 4 power on the battlefield? On turn four, the answer is clear, it is better to have the power on the battlefield. On turn ten, it depends what you draw, but if you take the time to do the math (NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!) it is often correct that the 4 power on the battlefield divided amongst three creatures is stronger then the two cards you drew combined. Most of the time, Whirler Rogue will be a better card, but I see so many "old school" players jamming 4 Inspiration and zero Whirler Rogue, then talking about being a control deck as if that makes Whirler Rogue worse. Food for thought....

Q7 - What mana acceleration is there?

Knight of the White Orchid, Animist's Awakening, Mwonvuli Acid-Moss, Nissa's Pilgrimage, Meteorite


Not much - it is situational and expensive, or narrow (like Nissa's Pilgrimage only fetching Forests). I hope this gets better by the time Battle for Zendikar comes around, I want to cast big monsters!

Q8 - What counter magic exists?

Countermand, Bone to Ash, Calculated Dismissal, Disciple of the Ring


If you are a long-time blue mage, this is tough to take. On top of that, they threw in some can't be countered spells like Gaea's Revenge and Exquisite Firecraft. You are being told that playing a deck of all counterspells is a bad idea, you don't have to like it but you should listen to what the cards are telling you.

Q9 - Do people use their graveyards?

Um....yes!

Auramancer, Disciple of the Ring, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, Corpse Hauler, Cruel Revival, Despoiler of Souls, Erebos's Titan, Gravedigger, Graveblade Marauder, Liliana, Heretical Healer, Necromantic Summons, Shadows of the Past, Gather the Pack, Possessed Skaab


In fact, the yard is the best place to tutor in this game. You may not get to search your library for any creature you want, but you get to search your graveyard and sometimes your opponent's graveyard for power, utility or value. The right mix of graveyard effects is a critical part of any black-based control deck.

Q10 - What are the most dominating artifacts?

Perilous Myr, Perilous Myr, Perilous Myr, Chief of the Foundry, Thopter Engineer, Esperzoa, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Whirler Rogue


Perilous Myr, of all the great card choices they made, why did they have to add that one? It's not that I think it is OP, unless OP means "over-played" to you, I just don't like cheap-but-useful artifacts that fill out every single deck. Why not make a card like Myr, but make it Black, or Red, or Green? Then at least not every single deck would shove it in. Anyway, /end rant. What you can take from this is that the dangerous artifacts are all creatures, so you don't need dedicated artifact removal because your creature removal will do the job.

OK, those are the first ten questions. There are actually around 15 more, and if you guys are enjoying this entry I'll keep going down the list throughout the week with my comments. Please chime in, let me know what you think of my selections, and what you would do differently. Does this help you think about the format? Is it useful? Let me know.

Will anyone give a crap about this week's content? Will I actually get to play some games and have results for you next week? Will Abzanchantments last more than a week and become a real deck? Tune in next week for another Duels Diaries :)


That was awesome dude. I am a big fan of Patrick's books myself. Great breakdown and looking forward to more.

Another note, we want you at LNN. Consider this a job offer.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:50 pm 
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randomname wrote:
Thank you for doing this. For less experienced players (like me) it's very nice to not always need to attempt to re-invent the wheel. I also have learned a lot from your logical approach to the game (for instance your post on the "to chump or not to chump - that is the question" thread).

As to the list of dominant cards, I wonder whether Consul's Lieutenant, Undercity Troll, Murk Lurker and Foundry Street Denizen may not deserve spots on the list? The troll seems to invariably draw removal if the opponent has it when played as a two drop, and sometimes even over what I would think to be more dangerous threats, and I'm not sure Twin Bolt would be as ubiquitous as it is if Consul's Lieutenant and Foundry Street Denizen were not around.

Also, if Disperse is considered cheap removal, then perhaps Frost Lynx and Harbinger of the Tide should be as well?


Why do you think they instantly draw the removal? Left unaccounted, they can dominant a board.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:44 pm 
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randomname wrote:

As to the list of dominant cards, I wonder whether Consul's Lieutenant, Undercity Troll, Murk Lurker and Foundry Street Denizen may not deserve spots on the list? The troll seems to invariably draw removal if the opponent has it when played as a two drop, and sometimes even over what I would think to be more dangerous threats,


Why do you think they instantly draw the removal? Left unaccounted, they can dominant a board.


Actually, that was the point I was attempting to make. If a card is on most players "yep, this has to die" list, it probably is one of the dominant cards in the meta.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:53 pm 
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randomname wrote:
randomname wrote:

As to the list of dominant cards, I wonder whether Consul's Lieutenant, Undercity Troll, Murk Lurker and Foundry Street Denizen may not deserve spots on the list? The troll seems to invariably draw removal if the opponent has it when played as a two drop, and sometimes even over what I would think to be more dangerous threats,


Why do you think they instantly draw the removal? Left unaccounted, they can dominant a board.


Actually, that was the point I was attempting to make. If a card is on most players "yep, this has to die" list, it probably is one of the dominant cards in the meta.


Sorry, must have misread that.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:19 am 
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randomname wrote:
randomname wrote:

As to the list of dominant cards, I wonder whether Consul's Lieutenant, Undercity Troll, Murk Lurker and Foundry Street Denizen may not deserve spots on the list? The troll seems to invariably draw removal if the opponent has it when played as a two drop, and sometimes even over what I would think to be more dangerous threats,


Why do you think they instantly draw the removal? Left unaccounted, they can dominant a board.


Actually, that was the point I was attempting to make. If a card is on most players "yep, this has to die" list, it probably is one of the dominant cards in the meta.

I think it's more of an opportunity cost evaluation. If my opponent is willing to leave the troll without regeneration mana then it gets removed. It doesn't matter if that's because they drop it turn 2 (which you shouldn't be doing) or if it's because they tapped out to play something later in the game.

I don't think it's because they are thinking the troll is a powerful creature that'll dominate the game if left unchecked.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:51 am 
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Nice read, would like to read more about this especially if there's some sort of summary/analysis that is derived from all of these questions.

Btw, small nitpick here: is Embermaw Hellion really dominant? And Kothoped isn't?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:19 am 
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Quote:
Topan Freeblade, Nantuko Husk, Elite Vanguard, Whirler Rogue, Kytheon's Irregulars, Priest of the Blood Rite, Abbot of Keral Keep, Disciple of the Ring, Erebos's Titan, Embermaw Hellion, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Thopter Engineer, Kird Chieftain, Dwynen, Gilt-Leaf Daen, Gatecreeper Vine, Gaea's Revenge, Lys Alana Huntmaster, Outland Colossus, Sunblade Elf, Woodland Bellower, Citadel Castellan, Bounding Krasis, Shaman of the Pack, Zendikar Incarnate, Perlous Myr, Chief of the Foundry
Once you understand what the most dominant creatures are, you can better judge the effectiveness of all the removal spells you are considering. As an example, I always see posts where some courageous members of the community run the numbers to see what percentage of creatures are killed by Reave Soul, or Gilt-Leaf Winnower. I do read and appreciate their work, but what is even better is if you make a list of what you consider the best creatures in the format and see how effective the removal is against THOSE creatures. Remember, we rarely want to remove EVERYTHING, we usually want to remove THE BEST THING, and I see most of the best or most-commonly-played-against targets on the list above. Gilt-Leaf kills something like 34% of the creatures in the game, but it actually kills 46% of the creatures listed above, a notable increase that may influence if you want to play da' Winnower.


More analysis on Winnower:

What creatures are likely to be played that I would very much LIKE to be able to answer next turn with Winnower, as they are prime threats:

Nantuko Husk, Whirler rogue, Kytheon's Irregulars, Priest of the Blood Rite, Disciple of the Ring, Erebos's Titan, Embermaw Hellion, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Thopter Engineer, Kird Chieftain, Gilt-Leaf Daen, Gaea's Revenge, Lys Alana Huntmaster, Outland Colossus, Woodland Bellower , Citadel Castellan, Bounding Krasis, Zendikar Incarnate, Chief of the Foundry, Kothophet, Esperzoa 21

Who does Winnower actually hit ?

Kytheon's Irregulars, Disciple of the Ring, Embermaw Hellion, Thopter Engineer, Woodland Bellower, Citadel Castellan, Zendikar Incarnate, Chief of the Foundry, Esperzoa. (46%)

Who would’ve been hit by reave soul on this list?

Nantuko Husk (rarely), Disciple of the Ring (if played on turn 5), Thopter Engineer, Whirler rogue, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Gilt-Leaf Daen, Lys Alana Huntmaster, Citadel Castellan, Bounding Krasis, Chief of the Foundry ( 48%)

Reave soul doesn’t give you a body though and isn’t a 2 for 1 a lot of the time; so a better question; what would cruel revival (very likely getting back husk/fleshbag/digger) NOT have hit :

Disciple of the Ring (if not played turn 5), Nantuko husk (90% hit rate)

Finally, a 4/3 menace body is real nice. Let us examine which of the cards Winnower whiffs on it can reliably trade or race:

Nantuko husk (unless the board is heavily stacked against you), Whirler Rogue, Kird chieftain (only if no fifth land drop from opponent), Bounding krasis, Dwynen (if she's alone ^^)

Ok. So from all that I think if you are running zombies in your deck you are on average going to get a much better result from Cruel revival. In a more aggressive black deck Winnower is actually quite good.

Gaea's Revenge(yawn), Outland colossus; Alhammaret, Priest of the Blood Rite, Kothophet, Erebos titan, and even Boonweaver giant (lol) are gonna be problematic without bags though, and if you are going to play bags, why wouldn't you slot in cruel revival ?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 7:32 am 
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Left4Doner wrote:
Nice read, would like to read more about this especially if there's some sort of summary/analysis that is derived from all of these questions.

Btw, small nitpick here: is Embermaw Hellion really dominant? And Kothoped isn't?


So, you are playing again Elves or Thopters. They have 20 creatures on the board, not even including your own. THEY Languish, you draw and die. Kothoped is weak without active Lifegain. It's a 6/6 cell mate that will defend you and once in a while win a game. But he rapes you every night. So yeah, definatly a bad card in this Meta. BfZ might change that, time will tell.

Embermaw however is a 4/5 with trample that increases the damage of any other red source by 1. That is insanely good value and hard to remove in this Meta.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 7:53 am 
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Does winnower kill a zendikar incarnate with four land out?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 7:55 am 
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Does winnower kill a zendikar incarnate with four land out?


I vote this man as president of Zendikar. Through him, we will beat the Eldrazi.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:38 am 
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omg barney pls


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:06 am 
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You can't cast Winnower with only four land out, it's a five-drop.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:10 am 
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Hakeem928 wrote:
You can't cast Winnower with only four land out, it's a five-drop.


Thank you Hakeem. Now on to Barney Black with the sports. Barney, tell us about the Zendikar vs. Eldrazi game coming up.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:17 am 
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Hakeem928 wrote:
You can't cast Winnower with only four land out, it's a five-drop.


Certainly there is a way to have more than 4 mana at your disposal with only 4 land out. Maybe not without some finagling over your own land being destroyed though...


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:54 am 
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Hi Covert,

This was a good read. I was actually compiling a list similar for my own personal use, so it's interesting to compare your findings to my own. I just wanted to say that I would be interested in reading more should you decide to do so. Thank you for sharing this information with the community.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:09 pm 
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licker wrote:
Hakeem928 wrote:
You can't cast Winnower with only four land out, it's a five-drop.


Certainly there is a way to have more than 4 mana at your disposal with only 4 land out. Maybe not without some finagling over your own land being destroyed though...


yeah but that would require stainless to program a mana pool and we all know they couldn't figure out how to do that


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:36 pm 
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licker wrote:
Hakeem928 wrote:
You can't cast Winnower with only four land out, it's a five-drop.


Certainly there is a way to have more than 4 mana at your disposal with only 4 land out. Maybe not without some finagling over your own land being destroyed though...


yeah but that would require stainless to program a mana pool and we all know they couldn't figure out how to do that


What she said.

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