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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:06 pm 
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I mean they've also explicitly made statements recently about the Elder Dragons and who they were and how many were left so like it's not even like this is unknown information or information that's free for contradiction...

Not that this is a retcon, but it makes explaining all this stuff so much harder.

I mean we've had several days of people being all "Well I don't understand what the big deal is since it shouldn't be too hard to explain that [recites totally inaccurate information for several pages] anyway I don't think it's confusing." I was cool with the change earlier in the week and now I hate it because it's now a huge headache that just compounds our existing problems with knowledge leaks. :/


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:22 pm 
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And the idea of a giant interplanar war between super powered Elder Dragons is a lot more interesting than a bunch of old dudes.

And WotC still insists on calling Nicol Bolas an Elder Dragon, and Doug made a point to note that Ugin ISN'T an Elder Dragon.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:24 pm 
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With this research showing such a vast paucity of information on the Elder Dragons, I'm more confused than ever about why there is/was such outrage over the "Elder Dragon" typeline on the Dragonlords.

Given that there's so little of consequence we actually know for sure about the original Elders, and that even the majority of that is from prerevision sources which have long been explicitly subject to contradiction by more recent material... Can someone ELI5 it? Because it just doesn't compute for me. Somehow I just don't understand why anyone can get upset that WotC's contradicting a two-decade-old page-a-day calendar we don't even have anymore.

I guess it comes down to understanding a Vorthos's life. See, the Elder Dragons (the real ones) have always been a particularly interesting bit of lore, and arguably the most memorable product of Legends (though I'm a big fan of Hazezon Tamar...) Anyway, as Vorthos, many people have spent a great deal of time and energy trying to discover ANY information about the Elder Dragons and this mythical Elder Dragon war, about which very little is known. Various flavor gurus like Barinellos, Keeper, and some even before them (was it Kerrick?) were basically information archeologists, and dug up every scrap of information they could, and then painstakingly struggled to keep that information alive and pass it on to others.

So, while to you, the fact that there is so little information out there and that it came from such a small source may indicate that the information is inherently unimportant, to me, it's just the opposite. That knowledge was hard-fought for and hard-won, and it's an indication of the love Vorthosi have for MTG lore. If anything, it's MORE upsetting that they disregard obscure knowledge than readily available knowledge, because readily available knowledge is easy to rediscover and point to. Wizards is doing a disservice to the people who care and who have spent considerable amounts of time and energy to get things right, only to see that effort shot to hell. And, back to my main point about this entire thing, it's been shot to hell for what I view as no good reason. There were plenty of other good options for the Tarkir dragons.

That's my take, anyway.


So most of your rage is coming from them not putting fan fiction and fan extrapolations into canon?

This calendar that is being spoken of, is it where most of the rub for people is coming from? Does such a calendar still exist in any form (lose tare away pieces, pictures, something) or is it more so the person remembering things from it? If it is them remembering things from a calendar, while its nice, you can't really depend on memory. I have a great memory but I get things mixed up so I expect others to as well.

Seems like being outraged over this will just make them shy away from exploring the storyline even more. There might have been little chance you got a full story and not much chance of getting pieces. Going full tilt on this will make those chances go away. They will view it is that you get mad over things not happening how you expect it, they don't know how you will expect it, so they will just not even try to go near it again. You turn them from seeing a small gain and possibly going after it to seeing a big mess and just keeping away.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:05 pm 
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Seems like being outraged over this will just make them shy away from exploring the storyline even more. There might have been little chance you got a full story and not much chance of getting pieces. Going full tilt on this will make those chances go away. They will view it is that you get mad over things not happening how you expect it, they don't know how you will expect it, so they will just not even try to go near it again. You turn them from seeing a small gain and possibly going after it to seeing a big mess and just keeping away.

You essentially just described why Kamigawa was considered a failure and why they won't further explore it. Also why Theros was considered such a success. It's all tied into expectations.

And on the other end, we would have been FINE if they'd left this alone instead of trying to do more with it. But even then, Doug admitted it was just a marketing move and these elder dragons don't have anything to do with the Elder Dragon Wars. They aren't even the same kind of dragon, and the entire elder thing is just because they're older dragons. So, as a consequence, it isn't like they even tried to meet previous expectations of what an Elder Dragon was, they just decided to create something unrelated and use the same label.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:24 pm 
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So most of your rage is coming from them not putting fan fiction and fan extrapolations into canon?

Of course not. No franchise can legitimately afford to just take any fan-created material and apply it to canon. But the original bits of lore were not fan-made. They were made by people officially commissioned to make it by Wizards. And it's not the extrapolations I want respected, but the original grains of lore. But as I've said repeatedly, it's not even THAT they're applying the term Elder Dragon to these creatures that bothers me, it's that there is, in my opinion, no good reason for it. Call them Dragon Lords, Dragon Masters, Dragon Monarchs, hell, even call them Dragon Elders, I don't care. Just don't call them an official, pre-existing term that doesn't actually apply. They wouldn't (I would hope) call these dragons the Primevals, or the Numena, or the Thran, because those terms mean specific things in the history of Magic. But they did it to Elder Dragons.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:15 pm 
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I mean, if Nicol Bolas doesn't show up in the next few months of storyline and kill these wanna be Elder Dragons, I'll be highly disappointed. THAT would be a way for me to really let it go that they called the Dragonlords Dragon Elders.

What happened is akin to inventing the motor boat, and calling it a car.

So most of your rage is coming from them not putting fan fiction and fan extrapolations into canon?

Of course not. No franchise can legitimately afford to just take any fan-created material and apply it to canon.

Star Wars would like a word with you.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:17 pm 
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Jman22 wrote:
So most of your rage is coming from them not putting fan fiction and fan extrapolations into canon?

Of course not. No franchise can legitimately afford to just take any fan-created material and apply it to canon.

Star Wars would like a word with you.
Funnily enough, so would Green Lantern.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:19 pm 
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Fine. Few franchises...


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:21 pm 
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I think an issue WotC has with accepting outside input extends from a fear of having to credit the people who provide the input, and potentially be open to lawsuits.

Isn't that the reason they never accept card ideas from people?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:25 pm 
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Fine. Few franchises...

Well, in fairness, Green Lantern is a case of ascended fanboy with Geoff Johns, but it ended up selling better than ever when he rolled his ideas out.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:02 am 
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Also can I just point out that we're talking about this directly above a board that is dedicated to a project inspired in part by past discussions and actual attempts to... make fan works canon for Magic :P

The fact that the attempts fell through doesn't make it an impossibility, particularly given the quality of fan works... a big corporation just isn't the place to experiment with a radical collectivist shared world fiction co-op.

Anyway the "don't complain or they'll take everything good away from us" is such a messed up attitude to take. No relationship of any sort, let alone a relationship between a freaking corporation and its customers, should have that dynamic.

Besides, it's incoherent for reasons we've already discussed. You can't say we're meaningless WHILE ALSO saying that we'll have a huge negative impact.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:11 am 
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Oh, by the way. Bethesda has done pretty much exactly that with the lore of the Elder Scrolls series. The guy who was originally in charge of it, Mike Kubrick or something like that, doesn't really work for Bethesda anymore but he is still the word of god for the lore in the series, and still makes new stuff for Elder Scrolls.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:24 am 
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Star Wars jettisoned a good chunk of the tie-in books, or so I've heard.

I'm probably in the minority, but I prefer when something I'm reading confounds, laughs at, or jerks around, my expectations. Perhaps why I wasn't as invested in the Theros storyline, or RTR's. If my piece of entertainment conforms to my expectations, it isn't worth my time. Throw Theros to the Eldrazi and bring back Kamigawa (unless there's a hidden twist that Bolas smashed Kamigawa, creating Theros and Tarkir). :smirk:

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 1:00 am 
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No one's framing this as about "expectations" except you Cateran.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 1:52 am 
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With this research showing such a vast paucity of information on the Elder Dragons, I'm more confused than ever about why there is/was such outrage over the "Elder Dragon" typeline on the Dragonlords.

Given that there's so little of consequence we actually know for sure about the original Elders, and that even the majority of that is from prerevision sources which have long been explicitly subject to contradiction by more recent material... Can someone ELI5 it? Because it just doesn't compute for me. Somehow I just don't understand why anyone can get upset that WotC's contradicting a two-decade-old page-a-day calendar we don't even have anymore.

I guess it comes down to understanding a Vorthos's life. See, the Elder Dragons (the real ones) have always been a particularly interesting bit of lore, and arguably the most memorable product of Legends (though I'm a big fan of Hazezon Tamar...) Anyway, as Vorthos, many people have spent a great deal of time and energy trying to discover ANY information about the Elder Dragons and this mythical Elder Dragon war, about which very little is known. Various flavor gurus like Barinellos, Keeper, and some even before them (was it Kerrick?) were basically information archeologists, and dug up every scrap of information they could, and then painstakingly struggled to keep that information alive and pass it on to others.

So, while to you, the fact that there is so little information out there and that it came from such a small source may indicate that the information is inherently unimportant, to me, it's just the opposite. That knowledge was hard-fought for and hard-won, and it's an indication of the love Vorthosi have for MTG lore. If anything, it's MORE upsetting that they disregard obscure knowledge than readily available knowledge, because readily available knowledge is easy to rediscover and point to. Wizards is doing a disservice to the people who care and who have spent considerable amounts of time and energy to get things right, only to see that effort shot to hell. And, back to my main point about this entire thing, it's been shot to hell for what I view as no good reason. There were plenty of other good options for the Tarkir dragons.

That's my take, anyway.


So most of your rage is coming from them not putting fan fiction and fan extrapolations into canon?

This calendar that is being spoken of, is it where most of the rub for people is coming from? Does such a calendar still exist in any form (lose tare away pieces, pictures, something) or is it more so the person remembering things from it? If it is them remembering things from a calendar, while its nice, you can't really depend on memory. I have a great memory but I get things mixed up so I expect others to as well.

Seems like being outraged over this will just make them shy away from exploring the storyline even more. There might have been little chance you got a full story and not much chance of getting pieces. Going full tilt on this will make those chances go away. They will view it is that you get mad over things not happening how you expect it, they don't know how you will expect it, so they will just not even try to go near it again. You turn them from seeing a small gain and possibly going after it to seeing a big mess and just keeping away.


The other problem is that its not fanfiction that we're discussing. There was a point where Magic's story line was being handled by a third party hired by Wizards, rather than by an in-house Creative department. The Elder Dragons of yore were players in some of those stories, stories which, for the most part, are still considered canon. There's also bits of Word of God and various off hand mentions in other books that get collected into this. Most of those sources will never be reprinted, and many predate the Internet and its willingness to archive anything and everything. While I don't agree with Raven's point of view, it is understandable.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 1:59 am 
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No one's framing this as about "expectations" except you Cateran.


In reference to Barinellos' reference to expectations as they pertain to Theros vs Kamigawa. The entire thing they've done with the creature typing "Elder Dragon" is the embodiment of my attitude toward expectations. Didn't see it coming, never expected this bit of esoteric lore to be touched again. I don't necessarily think upsetting Vorthos expectations toward the history of the typing will have the same sort of pull in the company as did the response to Kamigawa. That assumption that the slight discomfort over the Elders is anywhere near the magnitude of the consumers' problems with Kamigawa strikes me as an overreaction on Pantera Canes' part.

@Deckhopper: Tie-in is sort of fanfiction by default since it is there to compliment an IP or product. This isn't intended as a slight, as the few magic books I've kept on my shelf are near to falling apart from years of reading.

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And in so doing, they will miss the whole **** point.”


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 2:29 am 
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Cateran wrote:
@Deckhopper: Tie-in is sort of fanfiction by default since it is there to compliment an IP or product. This isn't intended as a slight, as the few magic books I've kept on my shelf are near to falling apart from years of reading.


Yeah, but by that token anything not printed on the cards needs to be considered fanfiction. I consider the earlier novels/comics to be legit, canon materials even if they do have a third party publisher, just as I consider recent IDW comics to be canon. Wizards paid for it all, after all. What we do, even when its more canon than canon, is fanfiction because we don't have the authority of Word of God to make it otherwise. The problem at this point is that God, for any particular value of God, has been killed and replaced any number of times now, so our holy scriptures are a bit muddled and now it is time to wage holy war for the true definition of what it means to be Vorthos. Which, in our case, usually means being slightly-less-polite to one another as we plan our weekly burning of MaRo effigies...


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 2:39 am 
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I find Doug's answer to "Elder Dragons" to be interesting, well not his answer but at least his vocabulary, he described the outcry against elder dragons as coming from people who's "expertise has been threatened." This feels like a good descriptor of both the Vorthos community and Wizard's actions of late. While we take value from Magic's flavor on a surface level (enjoying good storytelling, compelling writing), we take an even greater value from being able to place things in context and gain value from our hard won experience. We are the Vorthos-Spikes, we read to win, and Wizards keeps changing the rules.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 4:09 am 
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Deckhopper wrote:
The problem at this point is that God, for any particular value of God, has been killed and replaced any number of times now, so our holy scriptures are a bit muddled and now it is time to wage holy war for the true definition of what it means to be Vorthos. Which, in our case, usually means being slightly-less-polite to one another as we plan our weekly burning of MaRo effigies...

I want to be glib and spin this into some sort of Nietzche homage, but I think Money is what killed it.
Also, I'd suggest we just burn our copies of Maro but.... oversteps what I am comfortable saying. (not making any criticism towards you, I approve the humor)
Dr_Demento wrote:
I find Doug's answer to "Elder Dragons" to be interesting, well not his answer but at least his vocabulary, he described the outcry against elder dragons as coming from people who's "expertise has been threatened." This feels like a good descriptor of both the Vorthos community and Wizard's actions of late. While we take value from Magic's flavor on a surface level (enjoying good storytelling, compelling writing), we take an even greater value from being able to place things in context and gain value from our hard won experience. We are the Vorthos-Spikes, we read to win, and Wizards keeps changing the rules.

I'm honestly a bit disheartened by the fact that this seems to be framed as some sort of competition instead of a dialogue. There was a time when they were more open about interactions with us, but because of a few shaky years, that all seems to have evaporated. Doug's tumblr, as useful as a go to as it is, is really set up behind a wall where we can assemble to see what Doug has to say rather than a place we can feasibly interact.

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Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:46 am 
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Yeah, I dunno, I think Dr Demento's way of looking at is valid and totally legit from a certain perspective, but I think I would frame this more, for my personal reactions, as kind of a johnny-vorthos thing. Not that I agree that Vorthos is sort of a supplementary psychographic that can't stand on its own but if we're running with this metaphor I think it's a useful way of describing what I'm trying to get out of this.

I want a stable system in which to play and work and creatively respond. Just as drastic rule changes make building decks difficult, drastic lore changes make building good conversations about the storyline and creative responses to the storyline difficult.

I don't see this as a challenge to my expertise so much as a challenge to my ability to engage productively with the source material. The more changes like this take place the more pointless that engagement seems.

So this isn't a matter of vying for power, it's a matter of basically every deck archetype I like being systematically ripped out of the meta and me being left wondering why I should continue playing.

Now I know how Permission and LD players feel I guess.

I hope this clearly shows how "be less passionate about the storyline" is incoherent as a proposed solution since like being less passionate is literally the outcome that I want to avoid???


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