It is currently Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:54 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2277 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 110, 111, 112, 113, 114  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: A tumblr thing.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:04 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 7632
Quote:
silverkite19 asked:
Was there any talk about having the Chained Veil storyline come full circle, with one last confrontation between Garruk and Liliana? As good as Eldraine's story was, Garruk being cured like that seems a bit... anticlimactic.

markrosewater said:
The original de-cursing of Garruk took place in Dominaria and involved Liliana. We had to lose the subplot when Soup & Salad got condensed down to one set.

_________________
magicpablo666 wrote:
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A tumblr thing.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:50 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 15, 2013
Posts: 2136
Location: Roaming Dominaria
AzureShade wrote:
Quote:
silverkite19 asked:
Was there any talk about having the Chained Veil storyline come full circle, with one last confrontation between Garruk and Liliana? As good as Eldraine's story was, Garruk being cured like that seems a bit... anticlimactic.

markrosewater said:
The original de-cursing of Garruk took place in Dominaria and involved Liliana. We had to lose the subplot when Soup & Salad got condensed down to one set.

You know, when I first read this, I briefly turned into a seething mass of anger and hatred. Sure, I'm still angry about how this whole Soup & Salad situation turned out in general even a year later. And I guess I'm finally done caring about Garruk after a decade of waiting for the story of his curse to progress in any meaningful way, only to have WotC throw it away like that.


BUT on the other hand, let's consider what we know about the original story of that hypothetical Soup & Salad pair for a moment. So they wanted to throw Garruk into the mix and have him be de-cursed while also adding more to Liliana's plate, and in addition to that they wanted Zhalfir to return somehow, plus tell the parts of the story that we ended up seeing in Dominaria (at least more or less). Rrrright.

If you look at the issues with the Dominaria story we got, it's clear that even this basic, stripped-down version of the story suffered from a lack of space and had pacing issues due to the ommitted parts (and that's not even mentioning all the continuity errors that kept cropping up because Nic Kelman apparently refused to do his job). And when I imagine a visit to Dominaria in which the return of Zhalfir gets both the narrative and mechanical space it needs to feel remotely satisfying, I daresay you can't do that without at least one set that revolves almost exclusively around this one thing. You'd also need a lot more space to properly cover just the material that Dominaria tried to juggle, like one or two novels or something like that. And then you still haven't touched the triumphant return and de-cursing of Garruk or Liliana's part in that story...

So the bottom line is, I highly doubt that WotC's original story for Soup & Salad would have been significantly less disappointing than the Dominaria story was, or probably even more so. With all the major things they ended up cutting and the lack of space the story still suffered from after that, I think they were just trying to do too much, even for two sets.


In fact, their original concept might have worsened another problem that was already apparent in Dominaria: At its core, it wasn't a Dominaria story, not really. It was a Gatewatch story. The story was centered around Belzenlok as the main antagonist, and Belzenlok only existed because of Liliana - who, in turn, had no connection to Dominaria until recently (and didn't make me feel that connection once she was there either). The same is true about Josu, the other antagonist she had to overcome on Dominaria, or even the skin-witches. And sure, they tried to tie all that together with the Cabal somehow, but they ended up turning them into something unrecognisable in the process. I highly doubt more Garruk and more Chain Veil would have done anyone any good, especially since it wasn't just Liliana but also Gideon and Chandra that she dragged along with her. I mean, you suddenly have Jaya Ballard show up alive and well, but the person we see her talking to after all those years isn't Jodah, it's Chandra (a character whose mere existence should be pretty much obsolete with Jaya's return)??? And Chandra is also the person who gets to wake up Multani, when we had Karn, or Jhoira, or Teferi around who actually have a connection to him? Or, you know, that Carthalion guy who got cut from the set and who could very well become the next Elder Druid of the Juniper Order and bring peace to Yavimaya again, like his ancestor did?

Then you have Teferi getting his spark back, which I still think was a terrible idea, only so he can join the Gatewatch. Sure, it might have been somehow connected to the Zhalfir arc as well, and that arc would have very much been a Dominaria story in itself, but it still would have had to compete for space with all that other stuff, when it should have become the main focus of the entire Soup & Salad story instead.

And yeah, we got the Weatherlight back, along with Jhoira and a whole new crew, plus a cameo by Karn and Jodah, but when it came down to it, all those characters were pretty much sidelined before the climax. Didn't help that they just randomly tossed Radha in there only to have her not matter in the slightest. I really hope we're done with this Gatewatch nonsense now so that our next visit to Dominaria will get both the space and the focus it deserves.


Long-winded late night sermon over.

_________________
"Enchant me with your tale-telling. Tell about Tree, Grass, River, and Wind.
Tell why Truth must fight with Falsehood, and why Truth will always win."
—Love Song of Night and Day


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A tumblr thing.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:31 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 23, 2013
Posts: 3671
Identity: Goblin Piker
Keep in mind, the store from Core 2020 with Bolas and Ugin's retcon (which by the way, I guess makes the Tarkir elders actual Elders now, I guess?) as well as like, a 2 months span of no stories after that, and months of story silence during RTRTR and Gatewatch II, during which they could have easily fit the entire story for Dominaria.

I do think having Garruk show up would make sense, but would have probably been too many plot threads going on.

IDK how much of a set needs to be Zhalfir focused to emphasize the return of Zhalfir, but I imagine that it wouldn't be the entire set. Maybe 2 or 3 of the core colors have Zhalfir focused cards. Like, blue/white Zhalfir, red/green Radha/Keld, black has a bunch of Cabal/Josu stuff still.

_________________
Twitter: (at)MrEnglish22 if you want to reach me
My cube: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/1508


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A tumblr thing.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:42 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 23, 2013
Posts: 4095
I'm willing to bet Zhalfir is coming back soon, considering the one sentence teaser for the next core set was "Do you like Teferi?"

_________________
Come and play 3 Card Magic! The Most Minimalistic Magic Format! (TM)

my ego sig


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A tumblr thing.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:58 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 15, 2013
Posts: 2136
Location: Roaming Dominaria
Jman22 wrote:
Keep in mind, the store from Core 2020 with Bolas and Ugin's retcon (which by the way, I guess makes the Tarkir elders actual Elders now, I guess?) as well as like, a 2 months span of no stories after that, and months of story silence during RTRTR and Gatewatch II, during which they could have easily fit the entire story for Dominaria.
Now that you mention it, yeah, that's true. I had completely supressed any memory of the huge gaps we had last year... They didn't actually use that space, though, so it's hard to say how the timing of the story content would have looked like with Soup & Salad. Maybe we would have had similar gaps there, too, or maybe they would have used the available space 100% optimally.

Jman22 wrote:
IDK how much of a set needs to be Zhalfir focused to emphasize the return of Zhalfir, but I imagine that it wouldn't be the entire set. Maybe 2 or 3 of the core colors have Zhalfir focused cards. Like, blue/white Zhalfir, red/green Radha/Keld, black has a bunch of Cabal/Josu stuff still.
Admittedly, I could very well be very biased when it comes to that topic. But I just feel that the moment we visit Dominaria and Zhalfir returns, that's what should draw almost all the attention. It was the biggest unresolved plot hook going into Dominaria, long before we'd even heard the words "Gatewatch" or "Belzenlok", or, heck, the names of any of the Origins Five. Don't get me wrong, I think it's fine that they ended up saving it for later, given that Dominaria was only one set and it was our first real visit there since Future Sight. Using that one set's space and focus to give us an establishing shot of the plane as a whole and setting up the new history theme (which I'm a huge fan of, btw) was the right thing to do in my opinion. Give it the space and attention it needs and don't rush it, is what I'm saying. Because the moment you drag Zhalfir's return into it, the whole thing automatically turns into Mirage II, at least in my head, and then I'm going to be disappointed when it's not the centre of attention. And when we get to see Zhalfir again, I hope it'll show up in all five colours. I'll also riot if it doesn't come with Flanking, but I might be in the minority here...

Looking just at the story side of things, I think there's a lot of build up you'd need to get out of the way first. Teferi finding a way to return Zhalfir in the first place should feel earned and be part of the journey. Then you'd have to deal with the actual execution of the return and then with the ensuing short-term consequences. I guess you could show all that more or less in one set cardgame-wise, if you really had to (though you could also stretch it over two or three sets), but I think you'd need one or two proper novels to tell that story in a satisfying way.

At the end of the day, I'm always going to disagree with the current plane hopping direction as long as they pretend Dominaria is a plane just like any other and has to compete for space with other returning planes. Sidelining Dominaria like that is and always will be a mistake to me, no matter how good the sets revolving around it are (Dominaria is virtually the only thing I still care about in Magic, if that hasn't been clear). We were gods once... :alone:


But hey, at least I'm gearing up (ever so slowly...) to run a D&D campaign on Dominaria. They'd better not wait too long with more official Dominaria stuff, because sooner or later my version of Dominaria might be the only one I care about...

Edit:
Aaarrrgh wrote:
I'm willing to bet Zhalfir is coming back soon, considering the one sentence teaser for the next core set was "Do you like Teferi?"
Well, given that 1.) they used the last two core set storylines (Magic Origins and C19) only as vehicles for more retcons, and 2.) there's no way they could pull off Zhalfir's return in a core set, neither mechanically nor story-wise, I'm actually dreading C21... :shudder:

_________________
"Enchant me with your tale-telling. Tell about Tree, Grass, River, and Wind.
Tell why Truth must fight with Falsehood, and why Truth will always win."
—Love Song of Night and Day


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A tumblr thing.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:16 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 10985

_________________
At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost.
Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A tumblr thing.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:13 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 13, 2014
Posts: 148
via blogatog
Quote:
rakdosfiesta asked: I remember one of the main concepts for Crovax was that you wanted a vampire on the Weatherlight crew. Was Crovax originally intended to stay on the crew longer after his transformation into a vampire, or was he always meant to betray and leave the crew immediately afterward?

In our version he stayed on the crew as a loyal member.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A tumblr thing.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:02 am 
Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 10985
Honestly, I'm glad he defected and we got the story we got.

_________________
At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost.
Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A tumblr thing.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:54 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 15, 2013
Posts: 2136
Location: Roaming Dominaria
Barinellos wrote:
Honestly, I'm glad he defected and we got the story we got.
This.

I prefer his curse to have a real, tragic impact on his character. Man, to think how many members of the original Weatherlight crew either died or were corrupted before the Invasion even started... And I think that was exactly the right way for the story to go, it was what lent it impact and stakes.

I still think the new Weatherlight crew we saw in Dominaria is too much of a carbon copy of the original one, but it'll be intereesting to see where they are going with Arvad's story. Like, sometime soon and not in another ten years...

_________________
"Enchant me with your tale-telling. Tell about Tree, Grass, River, and Wind.
Tell why Truth must fight with Falsehood, and why Truth will always win."
—Love Song of Night and Day


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A tumblr thing.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:38 am 
Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 10985
So, without any real idea of where to put this, I thought it might be worth bringing up this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxaH6UB0BDk

_________________
At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost.
Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A tumblr thing.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:19 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 15, 2013
Posts: 2136
Location: Roaming Dominaria
I'm not the biggest fan of that guy's channel, but I agree with what he's saying in this video:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkApnQyI2kw

I was going to buy a physical copy of the book because it's awesome and I like to vote with my wallet, but now that I've learned that they've taken down the pdf version although they agreed to keep it accessible for free, I'm not sure I want to anymore. I don't care about getting that Theros story in the slightest, but I think it's disrespectful to both Sanderson and the fans to take away something that they agreed to give to us for free as an incentive for people to buy the physical copy. With the way the agreement looked like, they should let people decide for themselves whether they want to read the free digital version or pay for the print version (or both).

_________________
"Enchant me with your tale-telling. Tell about Tree, Grass, River, and Wind.
Tell why Truth must fight with Falsehood, and why Truth will always win."
—Love Song of Night and Day


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A tumblr thing.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:11 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 13, 2014
Posts: 148
For what it's worth, Sanderson talks about it a little bit here (he's mistborn).

Quote:
I was consulted about this. My stance has been that I preferred the story to remain free, but that I'd defer to Wizards on the actual decision. It is both within their rights, and within the scope of things we discussed when I agreed to write the story.
I went into this with eyes open, knowing that my story (though intended to be a gift to the people who play Magic) was being written for a corporate entity. I was (and am) under no illusions as to who owns Davriel or the story.
All of that said, the print edition they're doing will give a significant portion of its proceeds to charity. (All of my earnings, and I believe some of theirs, though I don't know how much.) I'm hoping it is successful, and would request that those who liked the story support the print edition when it is released.
I should probably also add that the creative team at Wizards with whom I worked were an absolute delight. In fact, every person at Wizards I've met or interacted with has been passionate about Magic, its design and its stories. It all makes me very glad that in my other writing, I am rarely forced to deal with or bend to high-level corporate decisions. (Though even there, it happens once in a while. Reference Macmillan's recent decisions in the library markets.)


He's being very diplomatic about the whole thing, but made it clear later on that this hurt his chances of working with Wizards again.

Quote:
Does this impact the likelihood of you writing for WotC again if given the opportunity?
(BTW huge fan! Elantris is one of my all time favs, and you did great work finishing Robert Jordan's WoT)

Yes, unfortunately, it does. I'm not completely against it, though. One of my Pipe dreams I'd to move to Seattle for a year or so, work closely with the design team, build an entire world/lore for a MTG plane, then write a full epic novel there. In my perfect world, the novel is done before design on cards starts, and they do a top down set based on the book.
Highly unlikely because of both my schedule and their process, but it is a dream of mine nonetheless.


I've sent an email to Maro expressing my dissatisfaction with this decision but doubt it will amount to much with the opaqueness we've been receiving lately in regards to the...everything on the Vorthos front.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A tumblr thing.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:52 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 23, 2013
Posts: 3671
Identity: Goblin Piker
Wait which pdf isn't free anymore?

I may have downloaded it and can just, ya know... Send it to people.

_________________
Twitter: (at)MrEnglish22 if you want to reach me
My cube: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/1508


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A tumblr thing.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:58 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 15, 2013
Posts: 2136
Location: Roaming Dominaria
Jman22 wrote:
Wait which pdf isn't free anymore?

I may have downloaded it and can just, ya know... Send it to people.
Brandon Sanderson's Children of the Nameless. But yeah, same here, I have the pdf and will gladly send it to anyone who PMs me, now that my laptop is working again and I don't have to log in on my phone anymore.


I'm still torn on whether or not to buy the paperback. I'll probably end up doing it because I want to support the few corners of Magic that I still consider worth supporting, especially when the creative side of the game is on the line. But I'll still file it under "bad business practises that make WotC look like tone-deaf, greedy ***hats". Like, wow, they really monetise everything they can these days, don't they...

And what's even worse is that this is just another bad move to alienate not just Brandon Sanderson but many past, present and potential future writers in general. How on Earth are they going to improve the quality of the storyline when they can't find any writers who want to work with them? I don't think the War of the Spark novels and the ensuing mud-slinging with Greg Weisman are a great incentive for writers to approach that company.

_________________
"Enchant me with your tale-telling. Tell about Tree, Grass, River, and Wind.
Tell why Truth must fight with Falsehood, and why Truth will always win."
—Love Song of Night and Day


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A tumblr thing.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:41 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 23, 2013
Posts: 4095
Sanderson has also said that he will donate 100% of the money he gets from those sales to charity, so he's encouraging people to buy it.

_________________
Come and play 3 Card Magic! The Most Minimalistic Magic Format! (TM)

my ego sig


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A tumblr thing.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:03 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 10985
Aaarrrgh wrote:
Sanderson has also said that he will donate 100% of the money he gets from those sales to charity, so he's encouraging people to buy it.

Sanderson was always a real upstanding guy.
As opposed to, say, Stover.

_________________
At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost.
Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A tumblr thing.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:32 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 13, 2014
Posts: 148
Which makes it all the more painful that his gift to the Magic community (which he created PRO BONO) is getting warped like this. Honestly might just donate money directly to whatever charity he was going to give his portion to rather than support this opaque scheming (if WotC was upfront about the monetization and/or taking the link down that would be one thing but they did so with no announcement and no fanfare, which is just scummy).

I remember the Matt Stover days. They started out alright but then it took a turn.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A tumblr thing.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:52 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 10985
VLW wrote:
I remember the Matt Stover days. They started out alright but then it took a turn.

Almost immediately took a turn.

But maybe we were spoiled by Ari and Laura in the first place.

_________________
At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost.
Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A tumblr thing.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:16 am 
Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 10985
A pretty good breakdown of what works and what's wrong with worldbuilding in places like Theros.
Well, specifically Theros, but the points apply to the Macro as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H981fHM6Li8

_________________
At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost.
Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A tumblr thing.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:31 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 15, 2013
Posts: 2136
Location: Roaming Dominaria
Barinellos wrote:
A pretty good breakdown of what works and what's wrong with worldbuilding in places like Theros.
Well, specifically Theros, but the points apply to the Macro as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H981fHM6Li8
Great video. And thanks for reminding me that channel exists, there's a lot of cool stuff that I missed.

Speaking of Theros and flavour, I finally sorted all of my my bulk cards properly, and while doing so I noticed the flavour text on Arena Athlete: The Iroan Games award no medals. Athletes vie for a visit from Iroas, god of victory.

Well, if they don't award any medals, then what's the point of The First Iroan Games? Yeah, you could make all sorts of clever excuses about how they used to hand out medals and have since changed theit traditions, but really, it makes the whole thing kinda fall apart. It's also a good example of the problems you run into when both trying to evoke the original real-world inspiration and creating your own thing.

_________________
"Enchant me with your tale-telling. Tell about Tree, Grass, River, and Wind.
Tell why Truth must fight with Falsehood, and why Truth will always win."
—Love Song of Night and Day


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2277 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 110, 111, 112, 113, 114  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group