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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 2:07 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
If the cards are primarily set up to feature the population of Ravnica, regardless of mechanics or expectations, it is Ravnican. Unless the guilds totally collapse in Jace's absence and the membership is utterly purged, they will take part in the conflict.

I wouldn't be surprised if 1/5 of the cards featured eternals and Tezzeret bots. Personally I am looking forward to something happening on Ravnica but I will probably be bored by the 2 sets before it.


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 1:27 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
It's tantamount to saying Hour of Devastation wasn't an Amonkhet set because it was about Bolas.
Yes I would say that. Or rather, I'd probably say only the positive version of that: "Hour was a Bolas set."
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I 100% guarantee that the guilds will be smeared all over that third set regardless of what the central narrative viewpoint is.
Actually, I think that what Wizards is trying to express that the guilds won't be smeared all over that third set. They will probably make a token appearance but, as Azure put it, only in the context of a wider gathering of allies and resources to oppose a massive external threat. They'll be there, but very, very far from the focus.

Now, what about Dominaria? Sure, this time they decided to go with a history theme (and they'll probably keep that in some form going forward), and sure, Sagas and historic matters were cool ways to represent that.
This is exactly what I mean by the set being comfortable fit mechanically (but, yes, not necessarily flavorfully). The theme of history as expressed in historic, Legendaries, and Sagas was a beautifully elegant distillation of exactly what made Dominaria special into a small handful of mechanical elements that could be woven into an interesting gameplay experience, without feeling either stretched or overstuffed.

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But honestly, what we actually saw in Dominaria as far as representing the plane as a whole is concerned was basically the equivalent of going to Ravnica and only showing two or three guilds. And that's true for both worldbuilding and flavour as well as possible mechanical identities. A plane that is so vast and that can be almost anything - even with an obligatory history theme layered on top of it going forward - can't be adequately captured in one set.
I see that only as a problem of flavor. I think that the genius of the history theme is exactly that it allows them to broadly hint at the whole (which by itself is an excellent way to provide a sense of vastness and import), without obligating them include any particular specifics. Dominaria did not have room for all the flavor elements I would have wanted. For example, I would have liked more of New Argive and a little less of Benalia, and I think Sarpadia got only that one cycle of basics (unless all the Thallids are supposed to be glimpses of Sarpadia? I'm confused on that point.) But sets always have more flavor and worldbuilding than fits on the cards, and they should have that.

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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 1:42 pm 
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astarael7 wrote:
Barinellos wrote:
It's tantamount to saying Hour of Devastation wasn't an Amonkhet set because it was about Bolas.
Yes I would say that. Or rather, I'd probably say only the positive version of that: "Hour was a Bolas set."
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I 100% guarantee that the guilds will be smeared all over that third set regardless of what the central narrative viewpoint is.
Actually, I think that what Wizards is trying to express that the guilds won't be smeared all over that third set. They will probably make a token appearance but, as Azure put it, only in the context of a wider gathering of allies and resources to oppose a massive external threat. They'll be there, but very, very far from the focus.

Here's the problem with your logic:
What allies does Ravnica have that AREN'T from Ravnica?
What keeps it from being a Ravnican set if the defenders ARE Ravnican?

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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 2:40 pm 
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astarael7 wrote:
Now, what about Dominaria? Sure, this time they decided to go with a history theme (and they'll probably keep that in some form going forward), and sure, Sagas and historic matters were cool ways to represent that.
This is exactly what I mean by the set being comfortable fit mechanically (but, yes, not necessarily flavorfully). The theme of history as expressed in historic, Legendaries, and Sagas was a beautifully elegant distillation of exactly what made Dominaria special into a small handful of mechanical elements that could be woven into an interesting gameplay experience, without feeling either stretched or overstuffed.
On that I can totally agree, but I think that doesn't really mean there's an objective measure of how many mechanics are enough to capture Dominaria (very much unlike Ravnica for instance). Is the bare minimum we got in this set really enough just because it captured the broad strokes and came together to make a functioning set (okay, it's actually the best designed set since I don't know when, so admittedly that really helps). I guess it's hard to explain, but imagine, for example, someone being like "Ah, but look at that goblin tribal theme they were going for! Wouldn't that have been more consistent if they'd kept that second set and included more goblins? And those thallids and saprolings don't do much on their own, shouldn't there have been room for more support, perhaps with the old Spore counter technology, and maybe a splash of White?". It would be hard to argue with that, because there really are some underdeveloped corners mechanically. At the end of the day, I just don't feel comfortable saying it was enough simply because it worked (again, I would say that about Ravnica, and probably most other planes). Maybe I'm still under a flavour and worldbuilding bias, but there is just so much mechanical precedence for pretty much anyhting on Dominaria.

astarael7 wrote:
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But honestly, what we actually saw in Dominaria as far as representing the plane as a whole is concerned was basically the equivalent of going to Ravnica and only showing two or three guilds. And that's true for both worldbuilding and flavour as well as possible mechanical identities. A plane that is so vast and that can be almost anything - even with an obligatory history theme layered on top of it going forward - can't be adequately captured in one set.
I see that only as a problem of flavor. I think that the genius of the history theme is exactly that it allows them to broadly hint at the whole (which by itself is an excellent way to provide a sense of vastness and import), without obligating them include any particular specifics. Dominaria did not have room for all the flavor elements I would have wanted. For example, I would have liked more of New Argive and a little less of Benalia, and I think Sarpadia got only that one cycle of basics (unless all the Thallids are supposed to be glimpses of Sarpadia? I'm confused on that point.) But sets always have more flavor and worldbuilding than fits on the cards, and they should have that.
Again, I mostly agree, but imagine if we returned to Ravnica and (instead of just two or three guilds like in my other example) they only focused on either allied or enemy coloured guilds and left out the other five. It would be a legit mechanical approach that could result in a cool set (or two sets), but people would still complain because it would feel like something's missing. That something would be really easy to point out in the case of Ravnica and a lot harder in the case of Dominaria. I guess it just doesn't feel right that, despite all the things they could have added, they just settled for the barest minimum and moved on. It feels weak, like a million wasted opportunities rolled into one. What's done is done, and as I said above, I can sympathise with them viewing Dominaria as a risk (as Maro has now confirmed). But at least going forward, I expect them to make up for that and go all in with the next visit there. What they've done with it is beautiful, and at this point it's pretty much the only thing I still care about in Magic.

The thallids seem to be all over the place now. The people in the story seem to assume they all come from Yavimaya or something (which causes a bit of a glitch in the case of Slimefoot, who came to Jhoira on Molimo's seed, which should be from Llanowar). Deathbloom Thallid seems to suggest there are indeed thallids in Llanowar, and there is a little fungus thingy on Territorial Allosaurus, which, judging by Allosaurus Rider and Pygmy Allosaurus, probably lives in Terisiare.

Edit: Of course Yavimaya IS in Terisiare, so I reckon that last part isn't really helpful...

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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 3:22 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
Here's the problem with your logic:
What allies does Ravnica have that AREN'T from Ravnica?
What keeps it from being a Ravnican set if the defenders ARE Ravnican?
I guess my counter question is, if we break it up into teams, we're looking at around 50% of the "invading force" likely being a rock-zombie army from Amonkhet led by Bolas and his assorted circle of hench-'Walkers. So right off the bat the focus for half the set will not really be very Ravnican in look or feel. What's left is the defending team made up of a coalition of Ravnican guilds and citizens led by most or all of the Gatewatch and their other ally-'Walkers who will likely be the focus of many of the cards you see from the set. Ravnica gets a setting advantage being the actual plane this fight will take place on, but will likely get less than 30% of the cards that really feel like Ravnica. With such a low percentage, is this really a Ravnican set or a set that just happens to take place on Ravnica? There is a real difference for people and their expectations.

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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 4:04 pm 
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I don't think it will be a 50/50 split, partly because of the color distribution. We might see a 50/50 split in the invading colors, but colors like white will definitely not see an even distribution.

Mind you, I'm not arguing over a mechanical representation, but a flavorful one.
I think a good roadmap for expectations, particularly for the Gatewatch meddling, will be Kaladesh or Zendikar and what the distribution on their forces looked like. However, there will and has to be, a consideration for how the third set will play with the other two sets so there will be backwards compatibility built in.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:47 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
Here's the problem with your logic:
What allies does Ravnica have that AREN'T from Ravnica?
I assume other planeswalkers are going to show up. Ajani and Jace have been doing something?
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What keeps it from being a Ravnican set if the defenders ARE Ravnican?
A Ravnica set is built around guild mechanics, color matters, and two-color gold. Mechanics are what define what a set is. That's why I'm calling it a set on Ravnica, as distinct from a set about Ravnica.
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However, there will and has to be, a consideration for how the third set will play with the other two sets so there will be backwards compatibility built in.
The sets are all meant to be drafted separately from each other, so I'm not sure consideration will be given to that. Or at least, no more consideration than say Amonkhet and Ixalan and Dominaria were given.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 5:32 pm 
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astarael7 wrote:
Barinellos wrote:
Here's the problem with your logic:
What allies does Ravnica have that AREN'T from Ravnica?
I assume other planeswalkers are going to show up. Ajani and Jace have been doing something?

...that's two people. Now, two people CAN make a substantial difference, but not by personally fighting a bunch of rock zombies.
It's like saying the Zendikari didn't do the fighting against the Eldrazi.
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A Ravnica set is built around guild mechanics, color matters, and two-color gold. Mechanics are what define what a set is. That's why I'm calling it a set on Ravnica, as distinct from a set about Ravnica.

It would seem most folks in these parts don't agree with your semantic dissembling.
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The sets are all meant to be drafted separately from each other, so I'm not sure consideration will be given to that. Or at least, no more consideration than say Amonkhet and Ixalan and Dominaria were given.

You remember Standard is a thing, right?

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 4:28 pm 
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Okay, I came into MtG from RtR

Dragon's Maze has such a bad gainax ending honestly, and it polluted a lot of Jace's character. I hope that Jace won't have to deal with being the Living Guildpact for much longer.

Bolas coming into Ravnica seems so awkward and jarring, and was only first referenced in HOU. While it is nice that a story spans multiple arcs, it shouldn't be injected so quickly after DOM. Gameplay-wise it's going to hurt.

Story-wise I think that InR isn't going to be Ravnican in nature. There's a lot of loose ends in Ravnica that won't be addressed in the course of two blocks. For example Teysa's attempt to remove the Obzedat is not going to be done in a single set, and her escaping her debt wouldn't be either. Outside help coming does not look probable and if it does come it would be really hard to justify.

There's also the unfortunate bits where a lot of the factions in the RtR block didn't have much story dedicated to them, instead lending pawns to be used or acting as filler.

I feel that the new Ravnica block would have these issues if not more, even though I personally like Ravnica's dynamic.

Where's WotC Ethan?


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 4:44 pm 
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Where's WotC Ethan?
You realise Ethan isn't in Creative and basically has nothing to do with the story, right?

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 6:16 pm 
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I want at least something to know if Creative already knows about some of these problems before.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 6:18 pm 
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Fine, I just thought I'd remind you not to roast him for stuff he isn't even involved in.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:57 pm 
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Okay, I came into MtG from RtR

Dragon's Maze has such a bad gainax ending honestly, and it polluted a lot of Jace's character. I hope that Jace won't have to deal with being the Living Guildpact for much longer.

Bolas coming into Ravnica seems so awkward and jarring, and was only first referenced in HOU. While it is nice that a story spans multiple arcs, it shouldn't be injected so quickly after DOM. Gameplay-wise it's going to hurt.

Story-wise I think that InR isn't going to be Ravnican in nature. There's a lot of loose ends in Ravnica that won't be addressed in the course of two blocks. For example Teysa's attempt to remove the Obzedat is not going to be done in a single set, and her escaping her debt wouldn't be either. Outside help coming does not look probable and if it does come it would be really hard to justify.

There's also the unfortunate bits where a lot of the factions in the RtR block didn't have much story dedicated to them, instead lending pawns to be used or acting as filler.

I feel that the new Ravnica block would have these issues if not more, even though I personally like Ravnica's dynamic.

Where's WotC Ethan?


I'm here, but I don't really know what's actionable about your feedback. All three of the sets are finished being designed. I'm pretty sure all of the art is done too. The story they depict has been something we planned years and years ago. The broad strokes of the story are, for all intents and purposes, set in stone.

The Magic Story column isn't done yet. The franchise team is putting the finishing touches on M19's story now. I don't have much insight into their processes (they work on different floor than I do, and they mostly interface with the worldbuilding team, not with us game designers), but I assume that they have someone at least started writing the Guilds of Ravnica stories.

I myself don't have much understanding of the problems with previous Ravnica story stuff. I haven't read any of the Ravnica novels, nor Doug's The Secretist. All I know about Ravnica's story is from Brady Dommermuth's hilarious retelling of the Ravnica cycle storyline from a meeting during RTR design, and from reading a couple of Jenna's short stories on wizards.com while I was researching Massacre Girl during Commander 2016 design. I'm working my way through the non-Dominarian fiction, but I'm still on Kamigawa right now.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:11 pm 
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...

I'm sorry Ethan I keep forgetting that half of the things that one could say about a new set can't be acted upon because the cards are being printed.

So the story team is putting finishing touches on M19 story, so I assume that Ravnica's story could be changed somewhat. I doubt it will though because I'm one person after all.

How was it like making whole new guild mechanics the third time? Nevermind you would probably talk about it in a Making Magic column.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:35 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
Quote:
The sets are all meant to be drafted separately from each other, so I'm not sure consideration will be given to that. Or at least, no more consideration than say Amonkhet and Ixalan and Dominaria were given.

You remember Standard is a thing, right?
Yes, that's exactly the point I was making.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:48 pm 
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astarael7 wrote:
Barinellos wrote:
Quote:
The sets are all meant to be drafted separately from each other, so I'm not sure consideration will be given to that. Or at least, no more consideration than say Amonkhet and Ixalan and Dominaria were given.

You remember Standard is a thing, right?
Yes, that's exactly the point I was making.

Then I think you're under-considering how much they do for that then.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:36 pm 
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WotC_Ethan wrote:
Okay, I came into MtG from RtR

Dragon's Maze has such a bad gainax ending honestly, and it polluted a lot of Jace's character. I hope that Jace won't have to deal with being the Living Guildpact for much longer.

Bolas coming into Ravnica seems so awkward and jarring, and was only first referenced in HOU. While it is nice that a story spans multiple arcs, it shouldn't be injected so quickly after DOM. Gameplay-wise it's going to hurt.

Story-wise I think that InR isn't going to be Ravnican in nature. There's a lot of loose ends in Ravnica that won't be addressed in the course of two blocks. For example Teysa's attempt to remove the Obzedat is not going to be done in a single set, and her escaping her debt wouldn't be either. Outside help coming does not look probable and if it does come it would be really hard to justify.

There's also the unfortunate bits where a lot of the factions in the RtR block didn't have much story dedicated to them, instead lending pawns to be used or acting as filler.

I feel that the new Ravnica block would have these issues if not more, even though I personally like Ravnica's dynamic.

Where's WotC Ethan?


I'm here, but I don't really know what's actionable about your feedback. All three of the sets are finished being designed. I'm pretty sure all of the art is done too. The story they depict has been something we planned years and years ago. The broad strokes of the story are, for all intents and purposes, set in stone.

The Magic Story column isn't done yet. The franchise team is putting the finishing touches on M19's story now. I don't have much insight into their processes (they work on different floor than I do, and they mostly interface with the worldbuilding team, not with us game designers), but I assume that they have someone at least started writing the Guilds of Ravnica stories.

I myself don't have much understanding of the problems with previous Ravnica story stuff. I haven't read any of the Ravnica novels, nor Doug's The Secretist. All I know about Ravnica's story is from Brady Dommermuth's hilarious retelling of the Ravnica cycle storyline from a meeting during RTR design, and from reading a couple of Jenna's short stories on wizards.com while I was researching Massacre Girl during Commander 2016 design. I'm working my way through the non-Dominarian fiction, but I'm still on Kamigawa right now.

#WOTCstaff



I really, REALLY want to know this BradyRavnica storyline.

My 2 cents, I think Jace being the Living Guildpact was an overall positive development for his character, just like Ixalan. I think part of that is because BEFORE all that, he didn't really HAVE a character.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:58 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
astarael7 wrote:
Barinellos wrote:
You remember Standard is a thing, right?
Yes, that's exactly the point I was making.

Then I think you're under-considering how much they do for that then.
I think I misinterpreted what you meant by that. I was thinking a level of consideration equivalent to RtR or Ravnica block where they would eventually be all drafted together and so they did have to have some thematic intertwining woven in. Crafting a good Standard environment out of sets is, to my mind, a very different thing.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:48 am 
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I think it is safe to assume some of the guilds will align with Bolas, while others will align with Jace. The question is figuring out which ones, because obviously during the whole "Battle for Ravnica" set (which I am fearing will be like Battle for Zendikar where they rip out all the stuff people were excited about for Ravnica) they have to include Eternals (generally in black, red, and blue) alongside the other guilds.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:04 am 
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Yeah, that's hard to gauge as well. Like, it's clear that some guilds like Azorious and Boros would stand against Bolas, but where do the others fall?

- Azorious: Very against, founder was extremely antithetical to Bolas.
- Dimir: For or against. There's a disgusting amount about the Dimir we just don't know, but they are in Bola's colors.
- Rackdos: Depends on how chummy Rackdos is with Bolas. Maybe for.
- Gruul: Depends how manipulative Bolas is. Probably against when the Amonkhet rock zombies march in to fight.
- Selsnya: Likely against.
- Orzhov: Maybe for or against, depending on what sort of deals Bolas makes with the Ghost Council.
- Boros: Very against. I doubt the angels would put up with this invasion.
- Izzet: Could go either way. Niv would be hard against, but smart enough to know better than to fight Bolas. Also Ral maybe works for Bolas so there could be a split among the guild's loyalties?
- Simic: Likely against. An invasion might also give them an excuse to test out some new mutants.
- Golgari: Likely for, for at least a while until Jace triggers Vraska and she flips mid-fight.

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