It is currently Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:05 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 5572 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 257, 258, 259, 260, 261, 262, 263 ... 279  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:44 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 16, 2015
Posts: 1240
Perhaps what is going on in Torrezon is something called revisionist history. How did Elenda acquire her followers? (Probably through force or intimidation from her success in the Apostasine War.) Would it give Elenda power to have honest and factual information about her cult or the Apostasine War? No. She had eight centuries to string together some BS and scramble the books that Planeswalkers now read to learn about what happened before. Numerous incidents occurred where "devotion" could and should easily be replaced with "fear" or "bloodthirst".

The only true and critical moment that Planeswalkers need, to know for sure what happened there, is the climax of the Apostasine War. The Immortal Sun was still around during that time, so details on Ixalan didn't change since the last time that a 'walker may have visited it.

Ergo, we have no idea what truly happened when Torrezon fell unless when seen through the eyes of the Brazen Coalition. They don't have access to what created Saint Elenda's power base among the clergy.

What is known however is that the Immortal Sun would have been abused in their hands. The only faction that didn't truly have the Immortal Sun yet is the Brazen Coalition, because there was no true pirate movement when Pedron the Wicked existed. It is also quite possible that Pedron the Wicked is a secular person that may have been painted as a pirate by the Legion of Dusk, because there's a very clear clause to indicate this.

"Obsession turned to blame. The church pointed fingers at the impious, while secular rulers became embroiled in their own political conflicts."

The Immortal Sun, being out of the hands of the Church, given the organization less power (temporarily) and given the peasants a chance to revolt. Elenda, possibly power-hungry but also might not believe in the average person's ability to govern themselves, used vampirism as a tool to keep a peace that Elenda idealized and was brought up with.

But hey, I'm just as much of a stranger to this world as anyone else.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:20 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 23, 2013
Posts: 3572
Identity: Goblin Piker
A few things to point out in this whole Azor thing:

+ Niv-Mizz is one of the few characters alive who was around for the actual Guildpact creation that we know of. Maybe one or 2 others who were explicitly said to be that old. I think there was another Azorious guild member who was old enough, but I don't remember.
+ Azor creating the Sun to try and create some order on the plane does seem very Guildpact-y and it would be neat to have Azor become the "empire builder, civilizer" type of planeswalker, who just pops around and creates civilizations that really fit his mold of what he wants.
+ It would be a neat way to tie Jace into ending up on Ixalan if Azor was indeed involved with the Immortal Sun and the binding, as he is the guildpact, a living enchantment created by Azor. Magical resonance, likes attract likes, something like that. Of course, I would be fine with the "people don't end up on Ixalan on purpose unless they know special things" aspect if they just came out and said it.
+ Azor going around the multiverse and doing his own planar shenanigans apart from Ugin and Bolas would make it seem a little more of an open place, because right now everything just feels super tiny because it all comes back to one of them currently in one way or another.
+ We definitely need more story than we are getting. I have always liked the PW Guides, but didn't they used to be written by Tamiyo? Seems odd to have one here.
+ I have an itching feeling Elenda is still alive, and may be a planeswalker.

_________________
Twitter: (at)MrEnglish22 if you want to reach me
My cube: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/mrenglish22


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:26 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 23, 2013
Posts: 3572
Identity: Goblin Piker
By the by, are we getting a Part 3 of the Planeswalker's guide? Because there is zero mention of the Dread Fleet, despite being on a BUNCH of cards.

_________________
Twitter: (at)MrEnglish22 if you want to reach me
My cube: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/mrenglish22


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:33 am 
Offline
Member

Joined: Apr 20, 2015
Posts: 112
Preferred Pronoun Set: He/him/his
To be honest, I'm kind of bummed out by this because I really wanted the vampires to have a bit more of a noble origin. I knew it would be difficult with a black base because I feel like if there's an X/black faction, the black part tends to really come through strongly. I would feel better about them if Torrezon was a war torn continent that was sort of "brought into line" by the vampires. To keep it from being totally white, I think they could have looked at how some people joined the Legion for selfish immortality and how their tactics were brutal or something like that. This just feels like "Oh, a black force using a religious to take what they want? Never seen that before :bored:". It hit me hardest when they called the last cities The Free Cities and said they were going through an artistic and cultural renaissance. It felt like it was a really heavy handed attempt to make them villainous and I wanted so badly to not have a mustache twirling faction.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:27 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 2793
Its sort of a weird flavor disconnect, yes. Magic wise, the Legion of Dusk uses shadow and blood magic and their origins were caused by dabbling into the dark arts. The Innistrad vampires at least had the excuse of the demonic forces being strongly associated with there, while here there are no hints of divine magic or forces associated with the vampires.

_________________
Matahouroa
Planeswalker's Guide
The Story

My Patreon:
https://www.patreon.com/Carliro
Image


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:47 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 06, 2013
Posts: 1376
Empyreal wrote:
To be honest, I'm kind of bummed out by this because I really wanted the vampires to have a bit more of a noble origin. I knew it would be difficult with a black base because I feel like if there's an X/black faction, the black part tends to really come through strongly. I would feel better about them if Torrezon was a war torn continent that was sort of "brought into line" by the vampires. To keep it from being totally white, I think they could have looked at how some people joined the Legion for selfish immortality and how their tactics were brutal or something like that. This just feels like "Oh, a black force using a religious to take what they want? Never seen that before :bored:". It hit me hardest when they called the last cities The Free Cities and said they were going through an artistic and cultural renaissance. It felt like it was a really heavy handed attempt to make them villainous and I wanted so badly to not have a mustache twirling faction.

Since they are being visually and in other ways compared with conquistadors, they basically had to be mostly evil to avoid WotC getting angry protests and boycotts, given the atrocities committed by the real world conquistadors. Doing otherwise would be comparable to having a partly good but clearly Nazi inspired faction.

I can understand wanting more black mana aligned good guys (or at least not evil), but you shouldn't expect it out of a group based around a real world group that has a well deserved bad reputation for atrocities.

_________________
Obsessed with hexproof.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:01 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 16, 2015
Posts: 1240
Since they are being visually and in other ways compared with conquistadors, they basically had to be mostly evil to avoid WotC getting angry protests and boycotts, given the atrocities committed by the real world conquistadors. Doing otherwise would be comparable to having a partly good but clearly Nazi inspired faction.

I can understand wanting more black mana aligned good guys (or at least not evil), but you shouldn't expect it out of a group based around a real world group that has a well deserved bad reputation for atrocities.

That is a very good point. They didn't really expand on this kind of faction before and given the atrocities being committed today, with revisionist history being a serious problem thanks to we-know-who, it would be a very, very good idea to have this faction be clearly evil.
Normally politics isn't something we should bring up but the subject itself is often useful for explaining why people do things, moreso than whether or not people should.
Villains with good sides to them may be more interesting but in this situation there was a boundary that shouldn't have been crossed.

I don't think they should have flanderized the pirates into goody-two-shoes either (heroes with bad sides are more interesting too) but it's understandable gameplay-wise given the block we just came out of. But I do taste the bias it has and it seems similar to what the United States view themselves as.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:18 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 269
The whole "We can't have the good guys be monsters" mindset is a sad one. They did the same thing with Baral making him a child murdering psychopath rather than a well-intentioned extremist trope.

If a setting like 40k can have the good guys be nazis at best then I don't see why magic can't at least be less strict with its morality coding.

_________________
"Is it possible that existence is our exile and nothingness our home?" - Emil Cioran


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:35 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Apr 20, 2015
Posts: 112
Preferred Pronoun Set: He/him/his
You guys are absolutely right about not making the conquistador stand-ins look good and I hope no one thought I was in any way implying the conquistadors were good! I honestly forgot the real life history they were mirroring for a sec there. I think in another setting I'd like to see more black aligned heroes or a multi-colour faction where the black aspect doesn't feel like the dominant colour, which I think is a problem. Or morally complex black figures. They've had some good ones recently (I liked Drana's "I'll work with the group because it's what's best for me" and Yahenni was wonderful but still never struck me as monoblack).


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:11 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 16, 2015
Posts: 1240
Jivanmukta wrote:
The whole "We can't have the good guys be monsters" mindset is a sad one. They did the same thing with Baral making him a child murdering psychopath rather than a well-intentioned extremist trope.

If a setting like 40k can have the good guys be nazis at best then I don't see why magic can't at least be less strict with its morality coding.

Warhammer's morality is like a pair of black eyes. MtG's morality and tone having some level of health to it (RE: tone: I like my coffee dark, but not tasteless) means that it shouldn't have clearly evil organizations be the inspiration of protagonistic characters.

Let's give an example of what it would take to have a character from the Imperium be a good guy in MtG:

If Darth Vader had a character that was clearly a bad person be his personal lightsaber dummy, and had that person lose a leg and an arm, I wouldn't care as much that he's now part of the good-guy ensemble because now, he should be pitied for being such a moron.

TL;DR: A lower bar set for good guys allows more evil organizations to leap over it. Therefore, a lighter morality scale would make it harder, not easier, for evil organizations to play the good guy.

Empyreal wrote:
You guys are absolutely right about not making the conquistador stand-ins look good and I hope no one thought I was in any way implying the conquistadors were good! I honestly forgot the real life history they were mirroring for a sec there. I think in another setting I'd like to see more black aligned heroes or a multi-colour faction where the black aspect doesn't feel like the dominant colour, which I think is a problem. Or morally complex black figures. They've had some good ones recently (I liked Drana's "I'll work with the group because it's what's best for me" and Yahenni was wonderful but still never struck me as monoblack).

I had a somewhat aborted idea where I had a mainly-:b: aligned faction (with a touch of :w:) that wants peace because it's simply more profitable than war.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:16 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 2793
Ideology wise, though, I think the Legion of Dusk is a rare faction where the ideology is predominantly .

They want eternal life for all and impose a strict religious order. Its just that they use magic.

_________________
Matahouroa
Planeswalker's Guide
The Story

My Patreon:
https://www.patreon.com/Carliro
Image


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:24 am 
Offline
YMtC Champ '11
YMtC Pro Tour Champion
YMtC Idol Winner
User avatar

Joined: Sep 23, 2013
Posts: 9008
Preferred Pronoun Set: he/him/my/mine/himself
I can understand wanting more black mana aligned good guys (or at least not evil), but you shouldn't expect it out of a group based around a real world group that has a well deserved bad reputation for atrocities.

like the aztec

_________________
In the custody of febb since 12.05.16
[Warchief] Custom EDH Project

you're like the kind of person who would cast Necropotence irl


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:39 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 2793
They weren't the ones using disease...

_________________
Matahouroa
Planeswalker's Guide
The Story

My Patreon:
https://www.patreon.com/Carliro
Image


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:05 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 16, 2015
Posts: 1240
I don't think they made out the Sun Empire to be a bunch of good-guys. It's subtle, but the atrocities that the Empire committed earlier combined with the lack of good things that the faction has done (mostly overshadowed by the River Heralds) doesn't paint a pretty picture for the Mayincatecs' culture.

But for reference, south of the Aztecs most large civilizations did practice human sacrifice before European contact. The Maya, Inca, and Muisca all practiced human sacrifice. The Aztecs were the northernmost of these peoples. Also, the Sun Empire is portrayed inaccurately. The most obvious example would be dinosaurs. When Europeans came to the continent, they were the ones that used horses while the Aztecs used almost exclusively infantry. The Aztecs also were disadvantaged in the fields of firearms and armor. Now, the tables are turned, but the europeans now have mutant super-soldiers instead of horses, firearms, and sensible battle dress. (Note that the Sun Empire doesn't have firearms or good armor either.)

Meanwhile, the Torrezon Legion has pretty visible connections with its source material, with an object of worship (a martyr is an object) and a whole church that was once built around that object, only to be corrupted for the gains of high-ranking nobility. That is something that did happen in European civilization.

TL;DR: I would not consider the Sun Empire as a protagonistic group.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:52 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 2793
I think it's another Selesnya incident, where a faction's nasty side is documented in side materials but not such much in the cards themselves.

_________________
Matahouroa
Planeswalker's Guide
The Story

My Patreon:
https://www.patreon.com/Carliro
Image


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:08 am 
Offline
YMtC Champ '11
YMtC Pro Tour Champion
YMtC Idol Winner
User avatar

Joined: Sep 23, 2013
Posts: 9008
Preferred Pronoun Set: he/him/my/mine/himself
TL;DR: I would not consider the Sun Empire as a protagonistic group.

The Sun Empire are introduced with a story of warm human connections, with a hero that tries to reclaim their lost city. The vampires are introduced through the eyes of a religious nutjob and a one-dimensional sadist, with little room for sympathy. It doesn't really have to do with being protagonistic. Kumena is an antagonist, but his portrayal comes off as a lot more reasonable and nuanced than the vampires. It would be very different if Vona signed up for the mission because she wanted to reclaim the Golden Sun—not being able to bear seeing her family have to consume others to survive—instead of participating because of how much she loves to murder.
They weren't the ones using disease...

Even if we lived in a fictional universe where the conquistadors carpet-bombed Mexico with plague-carriers, it still wouldn't make human sacrifice and cannibalization anything less than a moral atrocity.

_________________
In the custody of febb since 12.05.16
[Warchief] Custom EDH Project

you're like the kind of person who would cast Necropotence irl


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:12 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 25, 2013
Posts: 3109
Tbh, my reaction to the dusk legion portrayal in the guide was: wow, wouldn't have guessed englishmen still hated 15th century spain THAT much.

_________________
Useful link:
Spoiler


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:24 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 6945
Theoretically we are supposed to be getting an Un-Story from MaRo today in place of the normal Magic Story content. It doesn't seem to have posted up on the website at this time though so we'll have to wait and see when it drops.

_________________
magicpablo666 wrote:
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:55 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 2793
Probably post-poned. Could crop up any other day to throw us off.

_________________
Matahouroa
Planeswalker's Guide
The Story

My Patreon:
https://www.patreon.com/Carliro
Image


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:21 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 6945
Never mind:
Quote:
greatdinn asked:
I thought that there was going to be an Un-Story today. Did something happen, or did I get the date wrong or...?

markrosewater
It’s coming up. I forget if it’s in one or two weeks from today.

_________________
magicpablo666 wrote:
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 5572 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 257, 258, 259, 260, 261, 262, 263 ... 279  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group