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 Post subject: I Love Adapt
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:22 am 
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Young Girallion
Creature - Ape Mutant
At the beginning of your upkeep, adapt 2.
[2/1]

Voracious Mimic
Creature - Ooze
Whenever this creature blocks or is blocked by another creature, remove all +1/+1 counters fron this creature, then adapt X, where X is the greater of that creature's power or toughness.
[2/2]

Evolutionary Experiment
Creature - Bird Mutant
Flying, Hexproof
: Adapt 5.
[5/5]

Unstable Mutagen
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant creature.
Whenever enchanted creature attacks or blocks, it adapts X, where X is its power.
Whenever enchanted creature is dealt combat damage, destroy it.

Bulk Up
Instant
Choose one:
  • Target creature adapts 1.
  • Draw a card.

Bonus Card showcasing possible interblock synergy:

Persistent Pest
Creature - Insect
Undying
Whenever this creature attacks, adapt 1.
1/2


Last edited by EpicLevelCommoner on Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:47 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: I Love Adapt
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:39 am 
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Girallion, Experiment, and Bulk Up are all pretty broken.

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 Post subject: Re: I Love Adapt
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:58 am 
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Girallion, Experiment, and Bulk Up are all pretty broken.


How so?

Girallion solves the issue of undercosted vanilla beater by giving the opponent a turn to deal with a 2/2 before it becomes 4/4. By comparison Tarmogoyf is always burn proof with delirium and can get bigger.

Experiment is a five-drop 5/5 that takes an extra two turns (or other methods to untap) to become a 25/25. In a fair game of magic, that's turn 7, including a potential two turns where that 25/25 is unable to block.

And I'm just going to disagree with you on Bulk Up; it may be better as a choose 1 so it isn't dead, but broken is a stretch.


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 Post subject: Re: I Love Adapt
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:15 am 
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You can Thud your 25/25 before it untaps, and it has hexproof so it should survive a turn (or you could give it haste).

If there is a way to spend counters then getting two for free every turn is a pretty efficient engine especially if it comes on an undercosted creature. Putrid Leech at least costs you life.

Battlegrowth is slightly underpowered, but a cantrip is too strong. Aggressive Urge is a fair card, and that doesn't boost the p/t permanently


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 Post subject: Re: I Love Adapt
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:30 am 
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Flopfoot wrote:
You can Thud your 25/25 before it untaps, and it has hexproof so it should survive a turn (or you could give it haste).

If there is a way to spend counters then getting two for free every turn is a pretty efficient engine especially if it comes on an undercosted creature. Putrid Leech at least costs you life.

Battlegrowth is slightly underpowered, but a cantrip is too strong. Aggressive Urge is a fair card, and that doesn't boost the p/t permanently


Flinging big creatures for lethal isn't new; in fact it was a fun little niche infinite combo deck in Lorwyn standard between Quillspike, Devoted Druid and Rite of Consumption; that killed on turn 4.

Not entirely sure what your point is here. Putrid Leech does cost life to pump, but it has no timing restrictions, meaning that if you decided to try and use a Goblin Guide to trade with it or use Lightning Bolt on it, I could pay 2 life and save the leech at any time. That was in fact how it was used during Alara-Zendikar standard (Jund then was notorious for resilience with Sprouting Thrinax, Putrid Leech, and Bloodbraid Elf; it wasnt until Worldwake with Jace the Mind Sculptor that it was given a run for its money).

Finally, I am saddened that is actually a card; but it is indeed a contemporsry precedent. Will edit Bulk Up.


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 Post subject: Re: I Love Adapt
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:15 am 
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Wow, you overnerfed the least OP card, and did nothing to others!

(Don't take as an offense, I do this too sometimes. I think we all do, even especially WotC. )

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 Post subject: Re: I Love Adapt
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:34 am 
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Evolutionary Experiment also combos with anything that can give it vigilance or untaps it after it attacks because it can use its ability after blocks are declared. (I'm not saying that makes it OP, just pointing out other ways to one-shot people). Throw a Haunted Cloak on there and it can one-shot over 5 toughness worth of flying blockers on the turn it is played (with 6 mana).


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 Post subject: Re: I Love Adapt
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:11 am 
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@UselessCommon: while I concede that the fast control finisher may need to be toned down somehow, I stand by Girallion as something that is pushed but balanced; only thing I am considering is making it a 2/1 so it can still be answered by Lightning Strike after it adapts and also be answered by the likes of Gut Shot until then.

@Radical Jackal: Hmm ...would Adapt 5 be more reasonable then for Experiment?


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 Post subject: Re: I Love Adapt
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:21 pm 
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You know what Azorius and Gruul could really use? A hybrid adapt lord

Evolutionary Biomancer
Creature-Human Mutant (R)
Other creatures you control have ": Adapt 2"
4/4

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 Post subject: Re: I Love Adapt
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:54 am 
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Why would blue get access to permanent pump on a 4/4 for 4?

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 Post subject: Re: I Love Adapt
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:11 am 
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This is kind of a strange place to rant about this, but I'm really getting sick of these various +1/+1 counter mechanics. They are boring, stagnant, linear, and much of the time quite uncreative. That design space has been chewed up, defecated, and consumed again ad nauseam. They had already over stayed their welcome for me well before "outlast" and and "bolster" were coming out. "Support" especially physically sickens me. Even playing with them is annoying. All those dices and coins all over the place. It sucks when you try to tap five permanents with multiple dices on them. It's a mess. WotC, can you please stop?

Okay, so, with that out of the way, let's look at the cards.

Young Girallion is obviously op - it looks like Greenwheel Liberator, but without any actual requirements.

Voracious Mimic is kinda weird, but okay.

Evolutionary Experiment seems like a control's wet dream. It's super hard to deal with and can end you in two hits. I would expect this to have a mana cost along the lines of Simic Sky Swallower - so + as its generally better than that card.

Unstable Mutagen looks like a Berserk variant. I'm not sure about it. There shouldn't be a period at the end of "enchant creature" btw.

I don't know what Bulk Up was before, but now it looks a bit too weak.

Persistent Pest is kinda cool, but undying seems out of place - when are you supposed to have adapt and undying in the same environment? Works for a commander product I guess. Also, isn't this anti-synergy as you don't want to attack with this if you want to get the undying tricker properly off? Or was it supposed to have persist instead?

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 Post subject: Re: I Love Adapt
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:28 pm 
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Tahazzar wrote:
This is kind of a strange place to rant about this, but I'm really getting sick of these various +1/+1 counter mechanics. They are boring, stagnant, linear, and much of the time quite uncreative. That design space has been chewed up, defecated, and consumed again ad nauseam. They had already over stayed their welcome for me well before "outlast" and and "bolster" were coming out. "Support" especially physically sickens me. Even playing with them is annoying. All those dices and coins all over the place. It sucks when you try to tap five permanents with multiple dices on them. It's a mess. WotC, can you please stop?

Okay, so, with that out of the way, let's look at the cards.

Young Girallion is obviously op - it looks like Greenwheel Liberator, but without any actual requirements.

Voracious Mimic is kinda weird, but okay.

Evolutionary Experiment seems like a control's wet dream. It's super hard to deal with and can end you in two hits. I would expect this to have a mana cost along the lines of Simic Sky Swallower - so + as its generally better than that card.

Unstable Mutagen looks like a Berserk variant. I'm not sure about it. There shouldn't be a period at the end of "enchant creature" btw.

I don't know what Bulk Up was before, but now it looks a bit too weak.

Persistent Pest is kinda cool, but undying seems out of place - when are you supposed to have adapt and undying in the same environment? Works for a commander product I guess. Also, isn't this anti-synergy as you don't want to attack with this if you want to get the undying tricker properly off? Or was it supposed to have persist instead?


I suppose I like the keyword moreso for being a keyword action, meaning it can be used on triggered abilities.

Edit: must have submitted on accident; was in a rush. Anyhow on to the individual cards.

YG: I think everyone is missing the point that Timcan sneeze at this and kill it before it gets big. Tarmogoyf and Death's Shadow are conditionally big, several others get big temporarily at a cost. In fact, the closest to this would be Serra Avenger and, tbh, with the track record for conditional and temporary efficient beaters, they really need to consider something like this where a beater is weak at first but strong if left to grow.

VM: Ok

EE: That was the point; in Modern, control can really only compete because of Terminus and Snapcaster Mage; they lack a strong finisher. Not to mention that the biggest reason most players dislike playing against control (in my experience) is that after they take control of the game by turn 5 or so they take another 5 turns to win; making the finisher more efficient will go a long way. (As for YL comment, it's UG mechanic, so expect U cards to get it)

UM: That was the point, yes. And thanks.

BU: It was a cantrip and adapt 1 originally.

PP: Isn't it bad design practice to mix different counters on a single card? Anyhow the point of Undying and Adapt on the same card was to provide options to make the player think about whether to block or attack.


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 Post subject: Re: I Love Adapt
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:45 pm 
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I think everyone is missing the point that Timcan sneeze at this and kill it before it gets big.
no one's missing that, it's just not super relevant. "dies to removal" is a good balancing argument for expensive cards, but they almost never gain tempo for killing your 2-drop. yes, if prodigal pyromancer effects were playable, they'd be kinda good against it, but they usually don't come down until after turn 2 anyway so they're not actually good answers either.

Tarmogoyf and Death's Shadow are conditionally big, several others get big temporarily at a cost. In fact, the closest to this would be Serra Avenger
this is, like, the exact opposite of Serra Avenger: it's more likely to be an efficient beater if you play it on curve, before they have good removal options up. and the thing about Goyf and Shadow is that they require a lot of effort to be a scary size by turn 3. this requires literally none. like, it's not implausible to swing with a 4-power goyf on 3, but you need fetchlands, tarfire, and a third card in your graveyard to set that up.

:duel:

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 Post subject: Re: I Love Adapt
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:41 pm 
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In addition to what razor said, not all removal is toughness based. Only a tiny fraction of spells have an easier time killing it as a 2/1 than when it's a 4/3

It's actually more relevant that it doesn't block well on its first turn. But that's still less of a drawback than Diregraf Ghoul which can't block at all on its first turn, which itself is less of a drawback than creatures that can't block at all


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 Post subject: Re: I Love Adapt
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:53 am 
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YingLung wrote:
Why would blue get access to permanent pump on a 4/4 for 4?

Why would monoblue get graft, evolve and adapt period.
Maybe 4/4 is a little aggressive, but blue has always been able to get big creatures at any rarity.

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 Post subject: Re: I Love Adapt
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:17 am 
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Adapt is essentially Monstrosity 2.0 - they are both very similar keyword actions. Hardly novel.

On Persistent Pest, yes, mixing different counters is bad practice - I just wasn't sure what was the intent. "Persistent" implies to me it would be something that could come back multiple times.

razorborne and Flopfoot are both right on the money btw.

IMO cantrip "adapt 1" would merely be okay at . Battlegrowth isn't "slightly underpowered" - it's the trash of lowest kind. Gatherer rating of 1.8 out of 5 should be a clue there. Hunger of the Howlpack and Undying Evil are better comparison points.

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 Post subject: Re: I Love Adapt
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:26 am 
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Tahazzar wrote:
Adapt is essentially Monstrosity 2.0 - they are both very similar keyword actions. Hardly novel.

On Persistent Pest, yes, mixing different counters is bad practice - I just wasn't sure what was the intent. "Persistent" implies to me it would be something that could come back multiple times.

razorborne and Flopfoot are both right on the money btw.

IMO cantrip "adapt 1" would merely be okay at . Battlegrowth isn't "slightly underpowered" - it's the trash of lowest kind. Gatherer rating of 1.8 out of 5 should be a clue there. Hunger of the Howlpack and Undying Evil are better comparison points.


Isn't Monstrosity just a Keyword ability that is always in the form of an activated ability? The design space for counter mechanics is indeed oversaturated, but as a keyword action version of Monstrosity like Surveil, Scry, and even Bolster and Support, I feel it allows for interesting design choices that wotc probably didnt even consider.

Eh ... I am terrible with flavor most of the time; I guess if I included a separate trigger to remove +1/+1 counters from the card it would be more in line with expectations ... perhaps a blocking trigger?

Tarmogoyf literally requires no effort as it gets bigger by just playing the game. It may not be a 4/5 on curve typically, but it is definitely at least a 3/4 by then thanks to fetch, removal/discard, and that other card that was removed or discarded. Having said that ... would base p/t 1/2 be alright? Or a 1/1 for G?

*sigh* I guess I need to stop designing with Modern in mind, but I hate Standard's severely restricted card pool.

Anyhow, I was trying to showcase adapt on an instant, but the more important takeaway is probably just the 'target creature adapts N' bit.

How about this?

Sylvan Trainer
Creature - Elf Scout
When this creature enters the battlefield, another target creature you control adapts 1. If it can't, draw a card.
[1/1]


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 Post subject: Re: I Love Adapt
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:27 am 
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Isn't Monstrosity just a Keyword ability that is always in the form of an activated ability? The design space for counter mechanics is indeed oversaturated, but as a keyword action version of Monstrosity like Surveil, Scry, and even Bolster and Support, I feel it allows for interesting design choices that wotc probably didnt even consider.
Monstrosity is a keyword action. You could theoretically have a card with "At the beginning of your upkeep, monstrosity 1" or any of the cards listed here with adapt swapped for monstrosity.

Tarmogoyf literally requires no effort as it gets bigger by just playing the game. It may not be a 4/5 on curve typically, but it is definitely at least a 3/4 by then thanks to fetch, removal/discard, and that other card that was removed or discarded. Having said that ... would base p/t 1/2 be alright? Or a 1/1 for G?
Idk, 3/4 for is still super pushed and 3/3 for is insane.

How about this?

Sylvan Trainer
Creature - Elf Scout
When this creature enters the battlefield, another target creature you control adapts 1. If it can't, draw a card.
[1/1]
Sure, looks a mishmash between Kujar Seedsculptor and Elvish Visionary.

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