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Which contestant should make it to the finals?
Poll ended at Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:05 pm
Libe 83%  83%  [ 15 ]
ParadOxymoron 17%  17%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 18
Total voters : 18
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:05 pm 
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Welcome to the fifth season of Pro Tour: You Make the Card! This is your annual opportunity to put your fantasy fantasy card design skills to the test for a chance at internet immortality. Over the next several months, this competition will push you to be the best designer you can be to see which of you can join the ranks of YMTC legends.

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Libe's Submission

ParadOxymoron's Submission

Please vote for the contestant you feel deserves to proceed to the finals based on their submission this round. The poll will remain open until Saturday, November 24. I will be reserving my vote for tie-breaking purposes. Best of luck, Libe and ParadOxymoron!

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Last edited by Q is 564453 on Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:31 pm 
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My thoughts:

Timmy - Menagerie Cage vs Cytoplasmic Seed: These both seem like Johnny cards in all honesty as they require some build around to even function. Menagerie Cage essentially equates to a 10/10 vanilla for 6G with Naturalize, whereas Cytoplasmic Seed is a beautiful win condition alongside an Archangel of Thune + Spike Feeder combo and has utility with persist. 1 Point: ParadOxymoron

Johnny - Dangerous Dilemma vs Vel Kliana, Grief's End: Am I the only one who thought that the Johnny criteria boiled down to 'who would have the most fun while controlling their opponent'? Anyhow I dont necessarily like the idea of 3 mana Walker that can Flame Javelin my face or Past in Flame for lethal storm, even if Dilemma is more on the gimmicky side if Johnny-ness; at least Valakut decks can use it for consistent damage. 1 Point: Libe.

Spike - Sever the Soul vs Valorborne Gargoyle: Removal that can double as a flash attacker or 2/2 Ornithopter as long as you control at least two other creatures. Both are balanced power wise, but as far as playability goes, the versatilty of removal will always beat the cheese ptoential associated with a 0 mana flying bear. 1 Point: Libe.

2 Libe vs 1 ParadOxymoron; I will vote for Libe as I believe their designs are overall objectively better.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:55 pm 
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It came to my attention that Parad was editing her submission while I was posting the voting thread. I've updated the opening post to reflect her changes. Voters, you may want to revaluate the submissions.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:03 pm 
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Timmy: While I think Cytoplasmic seed is the better card, that's because I'm a johnny at heart. Menagerie Cage is is fairly uninspired, but the seed, while an alternate wincon that wants your creatures to get big, is still more of a johnny card since it would reward stranger interactions like Llanowar Reborn, Vigean Hydropon and Afiya Grove more than just big numbers on big critters. I still want to give the advantage to seed, because cage doesn't impress me in the least, but cage does fit the criteria better. Calling this one for Parad.

Johnny: Some day, designers will tame the versatile, powerful, and potentially interesting Planeswalker type... but that day is not today. Dangerous Dilemma is a strong submission, if one that's more solid than brilliant -- the B answer to the prompt -- but Vel Kliana doesn't really speak at all. Punisher plus? Eew. And the -X and -6 have some synergy, but not enough to really excite me. I feel like this card was designed not for "Appeal to Johnny" but for "Red sucks in EDH because it has no CA, design a card to help fix that" with her (?) psuedo-draw and Past In Flames abilities. Even at that, I don't think I like the card much. Edits came in while I was writing up my thoughts. The new version is better designed... but it's not a more johnny-exciting card. I can't imagine playing this in anything, except maybe to go mana-positive in Mizix. If I want the ult, I just run Past in Flames, and if I want the -3... do I ever REALLY want the -3 when it costs :2::r: and a whole card? I feel like the mana ability should be a + because of how hard it is to get a meaningful boost out of it, gaining an alternate - (maybe Gamble for an instant or sorcery?) and dropping the punisher garbage entirely. Advantage Libe.

Spike: Sever would absolutely see play in standard, but would it manage to crack into Modern the way a good spike card should? If it had cost :w:, I'd be inclined to say yes, since it would be better in most cases than Path to Exile while still being weaker than Swords to Plowshares. At :1::w: it feels more like a gimped Beast Within -- true it is a little cheaper, but going from 1 (for Swords path) to 2 (for this) hurts more than going from 2 (for this) to 3 (for Beast), and Beast Within has massive advantages. Plus, we also have Pongify, Rapid Hybridization and Reality Shift already. Spike does like this, but I feel like it's a flash in the pan for Spike, something that soon only Vorthos will remember. On the other hand, Valorborne Gargoyle... is way too much work for what it is. Sure, it *could* see play in a token-heavy meta where it's a 2/2 flier for free, but... Glint Hawk takes a lot less work to be a 2/2 flier and is a lot more resilient and versatile, and I don't remember it being Spike's darling despite existing alongside Memnite AND Mox Opal for a whole standard. Glint Hawk could bounce exhausted trigons, artifacts with ETBs, and so on. If you got it post-wrath, it wasn't just dead, and once it was on the field it never sat on its thumbs with Defender. Spike barely cared about Glint Hawk, he'll overlook this. Sever might be a flash in the Pan, but Gargoyle doesn't even register as that. Advantage Libe.

Seed is the best card out of all 6, but I'm not looking for the single best card, I'm looking for the best set, and for that Libe has my vote here.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:21 pm 
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I don't consider Menagerie Cage to be a Johnny card because it doesn't really require any particular creativity to utilize. It does have a little bit of a hurdle, yeah, but not one that a true Johnny would feel a pull towards.

It's a Timmy card in the same way Lord of the Pit is... it requires a little extra work, but the payoff is a big fun beatstick.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:27 pm 
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That's fair.

Edit: I swear there was another post in between these two when I posted this...?

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Last edited by Libe on Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:13 am 
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Changed my vote to Libe. I definitely think I won the Timmy part though. I had a really good Johnny planeswalker in the Tamiyo version, I think, but then when Q clarified that the minigame had to involve an opponent, i still held onto the planeswalker idea, but wasn't able to reproduce something as satisfying. I had some other ideas, one involving Hideaway, but I thought it was too abusable. I also had a Spike card that was probably cooler, but I decided the power level was too high. I probably should have erred on the side of too-OP for the purposes of making cards as high-octane as possible.

gl in the finals :)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:09 pm 
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Libe:
I really don't like Menagerie Cage. There's too much setup here to be a card for Timmy. I just want to be making and sacing this card all the livelong day. It doesn't make me go "I'm going to slam this and my opponent will run away as I stomp the win!" which is the rush that Timmy is hoping for.

What a clever card. At first it was feeling blue, but being forced to play it right away, and play it for free, felt nice and red. Only questions is whether this is Johnny or Spike. Spike will really like this card because it rewards playing skill, and they'll like playing against it for the same reason. Johnny will try to find a way to make it that your opponent will lose with either choice.

Sexy last card. Really love it. Very Spike. Very nice perversion of white's colour pie for an evil-white set.

ParadOxymoron:
Worst case scenario, this card is a dead draw. Best worst-case, your next creature is +1/+1. Best best-case, you win the game. Am I reading the wrong card order here? Because this is Johnny through and through without even a hint of Timmy in it. Timmy isn't hear to win the game, Timmy is here to make the big plays. This doesn't do anything big; it just wins if you complete the setup. And, like I said in the other thread, I don't find counters to be very Timmy focused, even when you have a lot of them.

Planeswalkers are hard to evaluate, but I appreciate you making the effort. This card can do some good work, but I can't really imagine using her unless you've already completed all the setup. The last two abilities play nicely off each other, but I don't feel like I get how the first one is supposed to interact with them.

And Spike... you really needed to throw both Affinity and 2-brid on one card? And defender with "achieve this to have folks that can attack"? There's a lot going on here. The payoff? You get a good card for white weenie. This is in a weird spot where neither Spike nor Johnny are really going to like it, despite it sort of being designed for both of them.


It's easy for me to vote for Libe. Sorry Parad.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:39 pm 
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Alternate win conditions and +1/+1 counters are incredibly Timmy. That's a big as plays get. Sure you'd run this with cards like Hardened Scales, Doubling Season, and Gilder Bairn, but I'd argue that those cards (in descending order of Timmyness) are Timmy cards too.

Like I definitely understand why my Johnny card didn't land, and while I personally find it kinda embarrassing that I couldn't manage to make a cooler Spike card than a literal Pongify variant, that Timmy card is phenomenal and I'm standing by that.

and mixing 2brid with a cost reduction is sweet af don't @ me. it was originally going to just be a 2/2 with Delve

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:12 pm 
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I think you miss what Timmy is. Timmy is the kind of player that purposely won't win because next turn they can attack with a 567/567 creature instead of a mere 10/10. Alt win cards are, pretty much by definition, Johnny cards. It's not about the winning, it's about the size of the win.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:10 pm 
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Eh ... I'd argue differently; nothing is flashier than an instant win. It's definitely a Timmy-Johnny thing as opposed to a pure Timmy thing (yes hybrids exist), but it is partially Timmy's domain.

For example, looking to Yu-Gi-Oh for inspiration, the Exodia set is basically the Timmy gateway there, though it works best in a Johnny shell. Different rules call for different playstyles, of course.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:10 am 
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I cast a vote, but looks like it won't do anything.
Timmy cards - both of these are more Johnny than Timmy cards. I like Parad's alt win condition more than Libe's big dude.
Johnny cards - Libe's is only interesting when you happen to have two powerful cards on top of your library. Often you won't even have one powerful card. It needs to be more like "look at the top seven, then play a minigame with two of them". Parad has a cool idea with a punisher ability on a planeswalker.
Spike cards - I like neither the flying Frogmite nor the out of color Pongify.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:47 pm 
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Parad


Libe


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:20 am 
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timmy cards


johnny cards


spike cards


verdict


:duel:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:53 pm 
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Timmy Cards:
Menagerie Cage, so basically 5(R/G/W) for a 10/10 vanilla...surprisingly in color for Dinos but not too impressive.

Not a fan of Cytoplasmic Seed. You don't actually wanna graft off of it so that feels a little pointless if you're using it for the win and the win feels pointless if you are using it for just an extra +1/+1 counter on something.

Not a fan of either but slight lean towards Cage for making a Dino.


Johnny Cards:
Dangerous Dilemma feels a bit uninspired to me. It's neat to have twists on impulse draw but if you told me it was a minigame I'd go "I don't see it."

So it's Browbeat on a Planeswalker that only it's one ability out of three is for the minigame.

I'm again not a fan of either but leaning Dangerous Dilemma because it fully gives to teh minigame aspect, I guess.

Spikes:

I like Sever the Soul. Very good removal that has enough of a drawback to be cheap but not so much I go "Why ever use it".

I do not like the Gargoyle. I dislike 2brid and mixing it with affinity so actually playing it on color quickly becomes the bad choice? What a mess.

As Sever the Soul is the only card I actually liked, Libe.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:11 pm 
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Congrats to Libe on making it to the finals!

I'll be posting the finals later tonight.

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