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Great Designer Search 3
https://forum.nogoblinsallowed.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=20217
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Author:  Flopfoot [ Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Great Designer Search 3

20 isn't as much about lingo as what concerns us most: rounds going to time is a bigger issue than ensuring the time is divided fairly between the two players.

I was also thinking bolt over Lenny, but Lenny was in m15. I guess one fast ramper in a format is allowed especially if it can be removed, compared to the power of bolt.

Black has for a long time been secondary in haste, it gets it to spice up commons while green gets it on the occasional competitive card, hence green is tertiary.

Author:  Silly [ Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Great Designer Search 3

@razorbro

the test was open source, you could look through past articles and stuff.

a good amount of the questions you missed are things that you can figure out pretty easily if you really wanted to put in the effort to look up sources

for example, looking at the mechanical color pie article that maro posted at some point in the past would indicate that haste being secondary in black is 100% the correct answer (the article lists haste as tertiary in green, mostly only used when they want to push a card for constructed)

Author:  TPmanW [ Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Great Designer Search 3

#17 has me confused.
Spoiler

Never mind, I misread it. I missed the word "hybrid".

#20 was weirdly worded. "Too slow" to most people means it wouldn't be relevant until too late in a game. The options presented made it clear that's not where they were going with that though. Would've sucked if it weren't multiple choice.

I would have got 24 wrong. Part of that's not knowing how they lay out work on sets though.

Not sure if I would have got 25. I thinking is "good creatures are green's specialty", and I might not have thought about it from a color balance angle.

28 requires careful reading. I suspect that in practice a vigilant flyer would show up to fill a design hole more often than the theoretically better vigilant flyer. The question specifically brings up the theory though.

30 I probably would have said first strike was more important than lifelink to control decks. Because it wards of attacks I guess.

32 I think I'd have gotten wrong. It's all about how WOTC's design and development departments interact. How they do it is probably the best way, but to answer correctly all a candidate has to know is how WOTC does it. If you did serious research with the WOTC columnists' work it might not be too hard.

35 is weirdly worded.
Q.Assuming it's strong enough for tournaments, what shouldn't it do?
A. The out of color thing! (The strength issue was irrelevant info here)

38 could get tricky if you interpret "re-costing" to include changing colors.

At some point, it this post stopped being about whether I would pass the test and started being about how well the test was written. Getting some unpleasant flashbacks to my school days here.

Author:  razorborne [ Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Great Designer Search 3

Silly wrote:
for example, looking at the mechanical color pie article that maro posted at some point in the past would indicate that haste being secondary in black is 100% the correct answer (the article lists haste as tertiary in green, mostly only used when they want to push a card for constructed)

yeah but that article was years ago, which means it could easily be out of date, and it didn't match my recollection. nor does it match the current standard format: both colors have exactly 2 real haste creatures, and green has a couple other cards that use it for logistical reasons like waker of the wilds. they're both clearly tertiary, based on actual current trends.

:duel:

Author:  Knifethrower [ Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Great Designer Search 3

What I disliked about the lightning bolt vs llanowar druid question was the fact that llanowar druid has to be on llanowar. If Maro had listed Elvish Mystic it would have been clearly Elvish Mystic, but with that extra variable it confuses what knowledge the question is trying to test.

I think that using the word "llanowar" was an unintentional mistake. Add that to the two questions that were released with typos, and I am amused by the fact that Maro messed up more questions than the contestants were allowed to mess up.

Author:  Johnny Valdez [ Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Great Designer Search 3

To me, the odds of a reprint of anything flavored Llanowar went from "near zero" to "within an almost complete certitude of happening" given the imminent (read: April) drop of the Dominaria set. I have grievances with many of the other questions on this quiz, but the knowledge of soon-to-come, well-announced sets would appear to me to be In Bounds for the purposes of this trial

Author:  Silly [ Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Great Designer Search 3

razorborne wrote:
Silly wrote:
for example, looking at the mechanical color pie article that maro posted at some point in the past would indicate that haste being secondary in black is 100% the correct answer (the article lists haste as tertiary in green, mostly only used when they want to push a card for constructed)

yeah but that article was years ago, which means it could easily be out of date, and it didn't match my recollection. nor does it match the current standard format: both colors have exactly 2 real haste creatures, and green has a couple other cards that use it for logistical reasons like waker of the wilds. they're both clearly tertiary, based on actual current trends.

:duel:

there's one that is less than a year old

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2017-06-05

Author:  Flopfoot [ Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Great Designer Search 3

Another take on q32
https://twitter.com/CubeApril/status/958392419011252224

For q26 you needed to know that blue and red are the spell colours. Same reason why red is second last to get a grizzly bear

Author:  Yarium [ Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Great Designer Search 3

I did a for-fun-fast quiz. There were a number I got wrong that I would've gotten right given more time to research them (said black instead of red for # of creatures, but wasn't sure when I typed it, didn't think through a stealing card losing haste, etc.). However, here's the ones that I definitely got surprised by:

#2 - I said Common. There have been some big, slightly complicated, Red creatures at common (like Lightning Shrieker). I was conflicted here on this, but I would've sided with Common eventually, if only because none of the other similar "set my rarity" questions in the quiz were things I'd consider Common.

#25 - I said "because green is enemy of blue/black". I over-complicated it in my head, as to me, the colour wheel is the most important thing that sets things apart. Blue is more spell focused, and ally of white, and black is "individuals that can be big, but not an army". As such, my thoughts were that Green then is naturally "have more creatures, and all the creatures can be big", while White is ally with Blue and enemy of Black, which means "More spells like blue, and a community that comes together to form something big, rather an individual". Yeah. Overthought this.

#28 - Yeah, this one tricked me. I always forget that blue can't get vigilance, which feels wrong to me, as it feels like something blue would do. "I am always prepared" sort of thing. But yes, the theory in that question is definitely correct, and I would've made that mistake for sure even on a slow go-through.

Author:  razorborne [ Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Great Designer Search 3

Silly wrote:
razorborne wrote:
Silly wrote:
for example, looking at the mechanical color pie article that maro posted at some point in the past would indicate that haste being secondary in black is 100% the correct answer (the article lists haste as tertiary in green, mostly only used when they want to push a card for constructed)

yeah but that article was years ago, which means it could easily be out of date, and it didn't match my recollection. nor does it match the current standard format: both colors have exactly 2 real haste creatures, and green has a couple other cards that use it for logistical reasons like waker of the wilds. they're both clearly tertiary, based on actual current trends.

:duel:

there's one that is less than a year old

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2017-06-05

it's still wrong based on available, empirical data. Maro can say what he wants but R&D does not print cards as if black is secondary in haste.

:duel:

Author:  Flopfoot [ Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Great Designer Search 3

Hmm you're right that they're doing big menace at common now (Granitic Titan), I didn't look that up at the time, but having prowess made it easier to confirm my uncommon suspicions. It can potentially 3 for 1 the opponent. Commons don't have lots of abilities, they avoid nasty surprises and they don't usually give card advantage.

That Maro card (q17) was tricky cause of Murkfiend Liege, but I knew that there couldn't be 2 correct answers and Curiosity is definitely in both green and blue. Green gets vigilance and blue gets this kind of pseudo vigilance; there was a time when blue was being considered for secondary in vigilance so that part of the color pie is a bit blurry. The reasoning at the end of the article is fair, that green wouldn't untap unless it was untapping other things or it was on an instant, but it's obviously meant to be a harder question.

However, that shouldn't mess you up on q28 because the question explains that they don't want a color that can get both flying and vigilance. So a-c are wrong because they could be mono white, and if blue had vigilance then d could be mono blue.

q25 is hard because it's more a question of "do you know the sort of things Mark Rosewater says". He likes to explain the relationship between colors strengths and drawbacks, like how white has the worst card drawing because it has the most answers. It makes sense that white doesn't need the biggest creatures to go over the top of the enemy creatures since white can just kill the biggest enemies instead, but it throws you a bit when the question says "efficient" because at the 1 and 2 converted mana cost range white actually has the most efficient creatures - green wins at cmc 3 and above.

However, none of the other answers are really that good. The color pie isn't based on what players like so b is out. And they're not afraid to change it if it's wrong so e is out. There's nothing really that special about being the enemy of blue and black. Black has the best removal, but blue doesn't have removal. Blue has the worst creatures, but black doesn't have the second worst. So it's not obvious that those colors point to green being strong, and similarly black and red don't point to white being weak.

Author:  Flopfoot [ Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Great Designer Search 3

razorborne wrote:
Silly wrote:
razorborne wrote:
yeah but that article was years ago, which means it could easily be out of date, and it didn't match my recollection. nor does it match the current standard format: both colors have exactly 2 real haste creatures, and green has a couple other cards that use it for logistical reasons like waker of the wilds. they're both clearly tertiary, based on actual current trends.

:duel:

there's one that is less than a year old

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2017-06-05

it's still wrong based on available, empirical data. Maro can say what he wants but R&D does not print cards as if black is secondary in haste.

:duel:
I guess you could claim that based on the test saying "If the effect is something we do a lot of, the secondary color will usually get the ability in most sets" - though I haven't counted, I reckon less than half the sets in modern would have a black creature with natural haste, but the sentence does have a couple of disclaimers.

However, even a small amount of evidence will satisfy this. Tertiary means that a color can get an ability but only with a good reason, like it's part of a cycle, it's needed for constructed, it makes the card work mechanically, etc. It's never added on to a card (particularly low rarity) just for the sake of putting that mechanic on that card. There's no way you could have Markov Crusader, Duskmantle Prowler, Gurmag Swiftwing, Blackcleave Goblin, Blighted Bat, Crypt Ripper, Frogtosser Banneret, or Manor Skeleton if black wasn't secondary in haste.

Below rare, green only has Strangleroot Geist and Crocodile of the Crossing.

Author:  razorborne [ Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Great Designer Search 3

Flopfoot wrote:
razorborne wrote:
Silly wrote:
there's one that is less than a year old

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2017-06-05

it's still wrong based on available, empirical data. Maro can say what he wants but R&D does not print cards as if black is secondary in haste.

:duel:
I guess you could claim that based on the test saying "If the effect is something we do a lot of, the secondary color will usually get the ability in most sets" - though I haven't counted, I reckon less than half the sets in modern would have a black creature with natural haste, but the sentence does have a couple of disclaimers.

However, even a small amount of evidence will satisfy this. Tertiary means that a color can get an ability but only with a good reason, like it's part of a cycle, it's needed for constructed, it makes the card work mechanically, etc. It's never added on to a card (particularly low rarity) just for the sake of putting that mechanic on that card. There's no way you could have Markov Crusader, Duskmantle Prowler, Gurmag Swiftwing, Blackcleave Goblin, Blighted Bat, Crypt Ripper, Frogtosser Banneret, or Manor Skeleton if black wasn't secondary in haste.

Below rare, green only has Strangleroot Geist and Crocodile of the Crossing.

almost all of those are older, though. blackcleave goblin was printed 8 years ago, and some of the things on that list are from even earlier. the only sub-rare black haste creature in Standard is blighted bat, comparable to green's crocodile of the crossing. at rare+ they each also have one: Yahenni, Undying Partisan and Gaea's Revenge. (although green has Majestic Myriarch, Nissa, Vital Force, and Waker of the Wilds as well, but those don't really count.) compare those numbers to red, which has 30 cards that have or give haste for normal usage, 19 of which are sub-rare. that's a ration of 15:1 total and 19:1 subrare for both colors. compare that to trample, featured on 38 cards in green and 19 in red for a 2:1 ratio, or the even-closer 25:16 if we're looking at sub-rare.

if the question is on the current state of design, then to claim that there is a secondary haste color at all is erroneous (blue and white, unsurprisingly, have 0 each in Standard.) but since that wasn't an option, green and black are equally valid options based on what they're actually printing.

like, I accept that the question was "did you read that one article MaRo wrote" but like the things he says in that article are demonstrably incorrect based on their actual recent record.

:duel:

Author:  Silly [ Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Great Designer Search 3

there is currently one standard black creature with easy access to haste at common and one at rare

there is one standard legal green creature with haste at uncommon

i dont see how you can claim that green gets more access to haste

unless you want to claim that green gets access to haste more often because red is the primary haste color and green-red beaters with haste are more common than black-red beaters with haste

lands dont count because giving animated lands haste is mostly "flavor text", it's just there so that you don't have to keep track of which lands are summoning sick and which lands aren't

Author:  AzureShade [ Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Great Designer Search 3

Quote:
lgosvse asked:
What were the most-commonly-missed questions on GDS3?

markrosewater said:
The most missed was the question about making Play Design like a card. The second most missed was finding colors for the flying, vigilance creature.

Author:  razorborne [ Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Great Designer Search 3

Silly wrote:
i dont see how you can claim that green gets more access to haste


I didn't:

razorborne wrote:
if the question is on the current state of design, then to claim that there is a secondary haste color at all is erroneous (blue and white, unsurprisingly, have 0 each in Standard.) but since that wasn't an option, green and black are equally valid options based on what they're actually printing.


:duel:

Author:  astarael7 [ Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Great Designer Search 3

Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary categorizations are not about the volume of cards printed with that ability. They're about baselines of who gets to use what, at what rarity, and if there are other external restrictions on when the ability gets to be used. Like everything else in Magic the absolute and relative number of cards is going to ebb and flow, probably a lot from time to time. At any particular moment, Green could have three times as many haste creatures as black. But so long as all of green's creatures were Uncommon+ Constructed bait, while all of Black's creatures spread across roles and rarities, black would still be secondary while green was still tertiary.

For reference, the definitions of Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary, taken from the Mechanical Color Pie article.
Primary

Secondary

Tertiary

Author:  Flopfoot [ Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Great Designer Search 3

When does the color pie change? Most of it hasn't changed from Lorwyn till today. If they take a mechanic out of one color they usually put it into another color. But if they decided to make it that haste is primary in red and secondary in nothing, that would be hard to tell. Your only clues that they haven't done so yet are Blighted Bat and the fact that they asked "which color is secondary in haste" in GDS3.

Author:  razorborne [ Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Great Designer Search 3

astarael7 wrote:
Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary categorizations are not about the volume of cards printed with that ability.

I went through the definitions you quoted and bolded all the references to volume:
astarael7 wrote:
Primary

Secondary

Tertiary


honestly, I don't care that much about this, but given that a) Haste is an ability that appears at reasonable volumes in every set, b) MaRo's own definition of secondary abilities say that if the effect is something they do a lot of, it should appear in its secondary color in most sets, and c) black has an average of 1/3rd of a haste card per set in Standard, and 1/6th of a sub-rare haste card, MaRo's insistence that black deserves secondary status seems to imply that he is unfamiliar with his own product.

:duel:

Author:  Hello World [ Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Great Designer Search 3

Iirc part of being tertiary is that they don't plan to use it at common at all.

Can someone ask maro why in question 38 (the mana drain question) they specified competitive in standard? He didn't use that to justify his answer.

Best I can think is that printing an overcosted land tax might be somewhat exciting for monowhite commander, but that seems a sketch.

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