It is currently Tue May 22, 2018 11:02 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 269 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:58 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 12, 2015
Posts: 659
razorborne wrote:

honestly, I don't care that much about this, but given that a) Haste is an ability that appears at reasonable volumes in every set, b) MaRo's own definition of secondary abilities say that if the effect is something they do a lot of, it should appear in its secondary color in most sets, and c) black has an average of 1/3rd of a haste card per set in Standard, and 1/6th of a sub-rare haste card, MaRo's insistence that black deserves secondary status seems to imply that he is unfamiliar with his own product.

:duel:
Okay, I hammered the point about volumes a little hard, but it's still about much more than plain card counts: it's about role-filling and the when's and how's of the usage. Green's haste has to meet certain conditions. Black's haste does not have any conditions on it.

_________________


"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins."

"Remember, dear friends: when we announce something and you imagine it, the odds that we made exactly that thing are zero."---Kelly Digges


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:46 pm 
Offline
YMtC Champ '14
YMTC Pro Tour Champion
User avatar

Joined: Jun 04, 2014
Posts: 12324
Location: Freedom
Preferred Pronoun Set: they
astarael7 wrote:
razorborne wrote:

honestly, I don't care that much about this, but given that a) Haste is an ability that appears at reasonable volumes in every set, b) MaRo's own definition of secondary abilities say that if the effect is something they do a lot of, it should appear in its secondary color in most sets, and c) black has an average of 1/3rd of a haste card per set in Standard, and 1/6th of a sub-rare haste card, MaRo's insistence that black deserves secondary status seems to imply that he is unfamiliar with his own product.

:duel:
Okay, I hammered the point about volumes a little hard, but it's still about much more than plain card counts: it's about role-filling and the when's and how's of the usage. Green's haste has to meet certain conditions. Black's haste does not have any conditions on it.

serious question, not meant as like a gotcha thing: what conditions exist on green's haste? neither gaea's revenge nor crocodile of the crossing are parts of cycles, nor do they absolutely need haste in order to function. (that second condition is why I'm not contesting the exclusion of things like waker of the wilds, which has a very conditioned use of haste but doesn't really count.) heck, Crocodile could easily have just been a red card: nothing about it mechanically precludes that, so it can't have just been put there because it had to be green. it's true that black's single sub-rare haste creature is a lower rarity than green's single sub-rare haste creature, but beyond that there's no clear difference that I can see. sure, green's are both big, chunky face-smashers, but that's hardly a condition considering that like 75% of green creatures are, and besides, it's easy to extrapolate a lot of arbitrary stuff from just two data points. I mean, judging by current standard cards, black is only allowed to get haste on 2-powered creatures that cost exactly and have an activated ability that grants itself a keyword.

:duel:

_________________
I tend to agree with Razor.

Pro Tour: YMTC: SECOND ONE IS OVER STAY TUNED FOR THIRD ONE
The BLOCK I'm currently pretending I'll finish: Fleets Of Ossia (complete!) | Wavebreak (complete!) | The Second Flood (in progress!)
Razorborne and friends teach music theory to chumps like you: 12tone


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:45 pm 
Online
Member

Joined: Sep 24, 2013
Posts: 5157
The condition is that it's being pushed for constructed. The crocodile's other mechanic was a deck they were trying to invent where you had sacrificial lambs that took the -1/-1 counters so your drawback creatures could be full sized themselves, but you wanted to make sure it was worth it.

There is no substitute for haste. The "surprise factor" of someone not keeping blockers for it is not really a big issue in constructed, but getting the damage one turn sooner could be worth more than any amount of extra power if the opponent is on low health, and more importantly it works well against someone using lots of sorcery speed removal. Without haste, if they have enough card advantage they can just kill everything you put out. Gaea's Revenge can dodge point removal, but wraths tend to be sorcery speed; it's not really forcing you to play green's game if you don't have to meet it in combat.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:41 am 
Online
Member

Joined: Sep 24, 2013
Posts: 5157
There's been a lot of online discussion about the question where you should put Serra Angel in BG so you don't have overlap between the colors. I think the question was ok because it told you what it wanted you to do, but it would still be weird to have those abilities in those colors. I guess 2 color gold creatures are hard to design. You already have the rule that you can't use tertiary abilities, but it's probably an unwritten rule that you would rarely have only secondary abilities and no primaries.

I think this is because with mono color cards, they have to be made in every set (except alara reborn). You can't just put deathtouch and menace on every black card, and not all cards are top down and will tell you what they need from flavour alone, so you start sprinkling in flying and lifelink and haste for some variety. But with 2 color cards you don't make as many of them, and there are a lot of combinations you could choose (e.g. choose one primary ability from black and a primary or secondary from green, dozens of choices even if you also have the rule that you can't have an ability that's in both colors).

Or think of it this way: Say you had a mono green deck and you decided to add black to it. You're probably not adding black because you want flying. If you want flying you'd add blue or white. If you add black you want something other than flying. Same thing if you start from mono black, you're not adding green for vigilance.

I made these cards,


:u::b:
Creature
Hexproof, haste
2/2


:1::b::r:
Creature
Reach, lifelink
2/3


Blue is secondary in hexproof, black is secondary in haste and lifelink, red is secondary in reach. Unlike the BG serra angel, neither of these could be a monocolored card unless you use tertiary abilities. But you still don't know why the 1st one isn't partly R and/or G and why the 2nd one isn't partly G and/or W. Also, these don't fit the feel of the color combination. UB is not usually about non evasive aggro creatures and BR is not usually this defensive. But that could vary depending on the set.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:08 pm 
Offline
YMtC Champ '14
YMTC Pro Tour Champion
User avatar

Joined: Jun 04, 2014
Posts: 12324
Location: Freedom
Preferred Pronoun Set: they
Flopfoot wrote:
The condition is that it's being pushed for constructed. The crocodile's other mechanic was a deck they were trying to invent where you had sacrificial lambs that took the -1/-1 counters so your drawback creatures could be full sized themselves, but you wanted to make sure it was worth it.

There is no substitute for haste. The "surprise factor" of someone not keeping blockers for it is not really a big issue in constructed, but getting the damage one turn sooner could be worth more than any amount of extra power if the opponent is on low health, and more importantly it works well against someone using lots of sorcery speed removal. Without haste, if they have enough card advantage they can just kill everything you put out. Gaea's Revenge can dodge point removal, but wraths tend to be sorcery speed; it's not really forcing you to play green's game if you don't have to meet it in combat.

but MaRo's definitions specify that being pushed for constructed is a condition of being primary. arguing that it's tertiary because it only gets the effect when the card is strong seems to fly completely in the face of the ranking system, which implies (although, admittedly, doesn't outright state) that tertiary colors are the least likely to get pushed cards with the mechanic.

:duel:

_________________
I tend to agree with Razor.

Pro Tour: YMTC: SECOND ONE IS OVER STAY TUNED FOR THIRD ONE
The BLOCK I'm currently pretending I'll finish: Fleets Of Ossia (complete!) | Wavebreak (complete!) | The Second Flood (in progress!)
Razorborne and friends teach music theory to chumps like you: 12tone


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:10 pm 
Offline
YMtC Champ '14
YMTC Pro Tour Champion
User avatar

Joined: Jun 04, 2014
Posts: 12324
Location: Freedom
Preferred Pronoun Set: they
Flopfoot wrote:
There's been a lot of online discussion about the question where you should put Serra Angel in BG so you don't have overlap between the colors. I think the question was ok because it told you what it wanted you to do, but it would still be weird to have those abilities in those colors. I guess 2 color gold creatures are hard to design. You already have the rule that you can't use tertiary abilities, but it's probably an unwritten rule that you would rarely have only secondary abilities and no primaries.

I think this is because with mono color cards, they have to be made in every set (except alara reborn). You can't just put deathtouch and menace on every black card, and not all cards are top down and will tell you what they need from flavour alone, so you start sprinkling in flying and lifelink and haste for some variety. But with 2 color cards you don't make as many of them, and there are a lot of combinations you could choose (e.g. choose one primary ability from black and a primary or secondary from green, dozens of choices even if you also have the rule that you can't have an ability that's in both colors).

Or think of it this way: Say you had a mono green deck and you decided to add black to it. You're probably not adding black because you want flying. If you want flying you'd add blue or white. If you add black you want something other than flying. Same thing if you start from mono black, you're not adding green for vigilance.

I made these cards,


:u::b:
Creature
Hexproof, haste
2/2


:1::b::r:
Creature
Reach, lifelink
2/3


Blue is secondary in hexproof, black is secondary in haste and lifelink, red is secondary in reach. Unlike the BG serra angel, neither of these could be a monocolored card unless you use tertiary abilities. But you still don't know why the 1st one isn't partly R and/or G and why the 2nd one isn't partly G and/or W. Also, these don't fit the feel of the color combination. UB is not usually about non evasive aggro creatures and BR is not usually this defensive. But that could vary depending on the set.

yeah, I agree. the question's fair because it spelled out its concerns, but a serra angel would be nonsensical in actual practice. multicolored cards are generally a bad place to flex secondary and tertiary mechanics.

:duel:

_________________
I tend to agree with Razor.

Pro Tour: YMTC: SECOND ONE IS OVER STAY TUNED FOR THIRD ONE
The BLOCK I'm currently pretending I'll finish: Fleets Of Ossia (complete!) | Wavebreak (complete!) | The Second Flood (in progress!)
Razorborne and friends teach music theory to chumps like you: 12tone


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:58 pm 
Online
Member

Joined: Sep 24, 2013
Posts: 5157
Red has powerful haste creatures more often than green does because red gets haste much more than green. But it's about the way tertiary mechanics are used. Black gets first strike on knights. Red gets extra turns on Final Fortune. White gets reach when flavor calls for it. This is what the mechanical color pie says about how haste is used:

"Haste is a weird case. Red is primary. Black is secondary, but mostly for numbers in Limited. Green is tertiary but is used by development for Constructed. So, there aren't a lot of green creatures with haste, but the ones that do have it tend to be good. This arrangement came about because design and development had different needs for haste in other colors; this was a compromise to make both groups happy."


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:15 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 25, 2013
Posts: 3081
If there's an hole for a bg card that would be filled very well by a flying sentinel spider (say because scavenge is a mechanic in the set) and a potential designer can't spot it because it is a "wrong" design, then I'd argue that's a shortcoming of theirs.

That radkos guy would be awkward because black has flying and red usually gets reach on creatures with power higher than toughness.
The dimir guy doesn't really seem like a card that would be useful for limited or constructed, but seems fine if a set needs it.

_________________
Useful link:
Spoiler


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:48 pm 
Online
Member

Joined: Sep 24, 2013
Posts: 5157
Red has had 3 reach creatures outside of planar chaos and 2 had higher toughness than power (though one of them had fire breathing). Gw creatures get reach even though they could get flying, sometimes you don't want flying. Haste and hexproof don't really synergize since hexproof wants to wait for an aura and cause haste's removal dodging isn't as important, but they could be good together if you have mana spare for a pump on the turn you cast it


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:29 pm 
Online
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 6838
For those wondering:

Quote:
bypassthewall asked:
I'm sure don't want to dip into another GDS3 controversy, but could you expand on why Lightning Bolt is worse for Standard than Llanowar Elves? This question got lots of online debate and I was hoping to hear more from you.

markrosewater said:
It’s a matter of how much it impacts and warps the environment. Lightning Bolt just has a larger impact and warping than Llanowar Elves.

_________________
magicpablo666 wrote:
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:12 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 01, 2015
Posts: 425
Got an email saying that I am out of the running : (


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:49 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Feb 21, 2014
Posts: 2041
Location: Gimme all your money
Identity: and nobody gets hurt
its okay im ded too

_________________
beep beep mother trucker


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:56 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 26, 2013
Posts: 410
Identity: Banana
Preferred Pronoun Set: buhnuhnuh
Here lies iLands

RIP

0-3 NGA =[

We should post our designs to the board later.

_________________
[Dredge 4] Life

Untapping teh Pimp since '03.

TSR lives.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:01 pm 
Offline
YMtC Champ '14
YMTC Pro Tour Champion
User avatar

Joined: Jun 04, 2014
Posts: 12324
Location: Freedom
Preferred Pronoun Set: they
oh no

:duel:

_________________
I tend to agree with Razor.

Pro Tour: YMTC: SECOND ONE IS OVER STAY TUNED FOR THIRD ONE
The BLOCK I'm currently pretending I'll finish: Fleets Of Ossia (complete!) | Wavebreak (complete!) | The Second Flood (in progress!)
Razorborne and friends teach music theory to chumps like you: 12tone


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:04 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 26, 2013
Posts: 410
Identity: Banana
Preferred Pronoun Set: buhnuhnuh
I wonder how many people submitted vanilla creatures?

I was proud of mine. :cry:

_________________
[Dredge 4] Life

Untapping teh Pimp since '03.

TSR lives.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:09 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 27, 2013
Posts: 3122
post ur vanilla


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:35 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 26, 2013
Posts: 410
Identity: Banana
Preferred Pronoun Set: buhnuhnuh
I’ll post them all here later when I feel more Red and less Blue.

_________________
[Dredge 4] Life

Untapping teh Pimp since '03.

TSR lives.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:42 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan 05, 2016
Posts: 1325
Location: noe valley
Preferred Pronoun Set: he/they
god bless the three of you. wotc isn't ready for nga

_________________
i disappointed myself when you asked for a secret and i could
only produce that my father would have preferred that
i had gone into politics, instead


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:12 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Feb 21, 2014
Posts: 2041
Location: Gimme all your money
Identity: and nobody gets hurt
my only consolation is that taking a pay cut to move across the country and work for wizards would have probably been a really bad decision at this stage in my life

will post one of my commons, because I really liked it mechanically

Reckless Thinking
Instant (C)
Draw a card, then discard a card, then draw another card.
Quiet debate devolves into raucous shouting - typical afternoon at Philosophers' Square

if other people think it would be a good idea to share a bunch of cards then I could definitely be convinced

by I wasn't 100% happy with all of my designs and dont want to really spam 10 cards here if nobody really cares

_________________
beep beep mother trucker


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:34 am 
Online
Member

Joined: Sep 24, 2013
Posts: 5157
Yeah I'd like to see em. Maybe each designer who wants to post their 10 designs should have their own thread so the feedback for each person doesn't get jumbled up


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 269 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group