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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:02 am 
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A lot of us have wondered what Magic would be like if we were to introduce a sixth color. What would it do? What makes it unique? Where does it fit in relation to the other colors? Ephemeron had explored a color which he called purple, that nestled itself in between white and blue. I think that may have been the closest any YMTC member ever got to viably forcing a sixth color into the pie.

The problem with trying to force a sixth color into the color pie is that with 25 years of Magic history, anything that the sixth color does will inevitably feel like it belongs in a different color. We have explored a myriad of different emotions, motives, attitudes, sicknesses, phobias, mechanics, and flavors over the years, and each fits either into one specific color or a combination of a couple of them. Adding a sixth color to the pie simply doesn't work.

About 8 years ago, I was looking at the color pie and noticed that the five colors formed a pentagon. A pentagon is also one of the faces of a d12, or a dodecahedron. It occurred to me that we were trying to create new colors in entirely the wrong way. Many more options open up if we think of each segment of a color pentagon as an edge between two distinct color pentagons. For example, black and red would exist in two different color pies together. This led me to create the color dodecahedron:

Image

Let's go back to the example of black and red being part of two distinct color pentagons. In the new color pentagon, the three other colors have to make up for the void left by white, blue, and green. Brown, yellow, and jasmine pick up pieces of the other colors' identities. Jasmine is usually a gaudy color that draws attention to itself, so it would likely pick up white's philosophies of supremacy and order. Brown tends to melt into the background, so in trying to remain invisible, it could pick up blue's protective countermagic. It's also tied to nature, and so could pick up green's land exploration abilities.

This is still a very wide open idea without much refinement. It would obviously be very difficult and time-consuming to design philosophies for 20 different, distinct colors! I would be very interested to hear what you all think of this concept.

(I mostly posted this because my thread about it on the WOTC forums is now gone forever, but it's an interesting topic for discussion anyway. :))

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Last edited by Q is 564453 on Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:19 am 
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I'll start with unfinished logic.

Assumption: the current color pie's resources need to be split among the five colors in every new pie. This is so that there's still counterspells and the like.

Aqua and Jasmine, since they won't be sharing color space with blue, would have to take up blue's pieces.
Jasmine - Brown would have to make up for white.
Brown-Purple, green. Orange-Purple, red, and Orange-Aqua, black.

Orange :r::b:
Aqua :u::b:
Jasmine :w::u:
Brown :g::w:
Purple :g::r:

Grey :u::r:
Gold :w::b:
Yellow :g::u:
Lime :r::w:
Tan :g::b:

Silver and Turquoise need to have white's elements. However, indigo and turquoise need to share something with brown.
Thus the "ally colors" would have more ally-color themed stuff, while enemy colors would only exist in one slice of the dodecahedron.


Last edited by preadatordetector on Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:49 am 
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Sorry all this thread is making me think what a shame it is that Eph's take on it doesn't apparently exist any more


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:50 am 
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Extension of logic.
M and A would both be :u::b:, but perform differently. M would be defined by ally "colors" of :r::w:, :b::r:, and :w::u:. Therefore, it would have more :r: and :w: elements, which lead it to use evasion instead of something like, say, mill. Meanwhile, A would be defined by ally "colors" of :g:, :u::r:, and :w::b:. Therefore, it would be focused on milling decks, but have no evasive creatures.

You know what? I think the colors given by the dodecahedron make it harder for me to think, so I'll shorthand it. I also prefer to use this thing I'll bring up, since it suits my mathematician mind more.

Image

This image enables warping the 'hedron, making new color pies simply by taking two connecting color pies, and tracing from one opposite end to the other. For example, trace a line of five colors from White to M, and you get a new color pie with white and M being ally colors. This also makes it more important that the new colors emulate what the old colors left behind.

Also, this enables a sort of yin-yang perspective, where in this example, Y and O are completely incompatible with each other because they can never go on the same color pie. O is :b::r:, Y :g::u:. Many tricolor combinations would also be prohibited, one example being green, blue, and T.

Please don't tell me that the colors are finalized and cannot be changed.

A problem I noticed with the way I made this system is that some colors would end up overloading some color pies. For example, Green and white would overload the W-G-R-J-Y color pie, since J is :w::u: and Y is :g::u:. Black wouldn't exist at all in this color pie with this exchange, with its components being sent off to green and white. Enemy colors would have to share (a lot of) stuff with each other just so they won't get completely eradicated when a new color pie appears. Ally colors meanwhile can't just share as little as possible, otherwise imaginary colors would run out of material to use.

Logic still incomplete.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:51 pm 
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predatordetector: I think your logic goes against what Q is trying to accomplish. These new colors and faces of the dodecahedron aren't simply trying to mash two existing colors together to create a super color. My guess is that each color on the new face will have elements of the absent colors mixed together along with a unique philosophy on why they mechanically do these things.

Jasmine, for instance, has white's love of order and supremacy. It may also have green's love of natural beauty, but that's combined with blue's desire to recreate it / modify itself to out-beauty nature. These are all random guesses, but you get the idea.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:55 pm 
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Yeah, I think Jo has the right idea. One color isn't a mere calculation other absent colors, just like a person isn't a simple calculation of the genetic code of its parents. I'm thinking something more organic.

The colors themselves aren't at in stone; the diagram is mostly a demonstration piece. I do really like Brown and Jasmine where they are, though.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:40 pm 
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BelangiaJo wrote:
predatordetector: I think your logic goes against what Q is trying to accomplish. These new colors and faces of the dodecahedron aren't simply trying to mash two existing colors together to create a super color. My guess is that each color on the new face will have elements of the absent colors mixed together along with a unique philosophy on why they mechanically do these things.

Jasmine, for instance, has white's love of order and supremacy. It may also have green's love of natural beauty, but that's combined with blue's desire to recreate it / modify itself to out-beauty nature. These are all random guesses, but you get the idea.

Let's say that a color dodecahedron was implemented, and each set only has access to one color pie.

Let's give one set as an example, with five arbitrary colors, each with at least two mechanics for five archetypes, but each color has a third for archetypes that they are proficient in.

:w: has :w:a1, :w:a2, :w:a3, :w:s1, :w:s2, :w:s3, :w:o1, :w:o2, :w:c1, :w:c2, :w:m1, :w:m2.
:u: has :u:a1, :u:a2, :u:s1, :u:s2, :u:o1, :u:o2, :u:o3, :u:c1, :u:c2, :u:c3, :u:m1, :u:m2.
and so on.

Here's a problem. If we were to just mix and match all colors willy-nilly, we might end up with a situation where there would exist a color pie that lacks some mechanics from the original MtG, or give a disproportionate amount of aggressive tools while, say, combo falls far behind.

One idea is to prevent a color that shares a pie with another one from sharing mechanics. Jasmine, for example, cannot share space that black, red, and green already occupy. However, this is problematic to do properly, and I was in the process of exploring this when I was interrupted.

Another idea would be to drop all that and give colors abilities based on their positions in the dodecahedron.

For example, there could be sets of colors would have an aggro-control-themed mechanic, say first strike. White, black, red, and yellow would have first strike and similar abilities, while green, blue, jasmine and brown would have strong anti-removal tools for its creatures.

Currently feasible color pie combinations would be ~72 or so coming from the diagram with the added warping phenomena I was talking about earlier. 6 dimensions of 5 mechanics each could also be defined in this manner, or 6 dimensions of 2 mechanics each with a set of four being neutral.

For an unrealistic example, let's give green, blue, grey, and tan the hat of being kings of card draw and progression, and white, orange, aqua, and purple having few ways of getting cards from their deck but is able to abuse effects like Buried Alive and trade cards between non-library zones. Red, black, silver and turquoise could trade permanent resources to get some card or thing they want sooner, and so on.

I don't know. I guess I was like "ooh! 3D!" without actually thinking about what other people would want to say. Sorry for being inconsiderate.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:04 pm 
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I like the idea of adding an extra dimension, but I think that we need to know what that extra dimension represents.

I think this is the same as saying that we need to be able to distinguish the different pentagons by assigning to them different 'philosophies', but that the philosophies cannot be of the same kind as the colour philosophies.

Morality could maybe do the job, since at the moment, in theory, any colour has evil and good elements? -- But we'd need more than just Evil, Amoral, and Moral to fill out the 20 pentagons...


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:03 pm 
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Predator is saying that if you make a color pie off of RB by shuffling the contents of WUG, and then make a color pie off of RG by shuffling WUB, then at some point you have to bring these elements together in another pie that no longer has the correct ratio of elements. It's essentially a tiling problem where you are pretending each color can be represented by "mechanics dominoes" and then you are tiling them over a dodecahedron hoping everything can match up and Predator is asserting it doesn't work.

EDIT: This problem can be eased by creating a fraction of a sixth color we can call epsilon that is absent from the base color pie, but can be mixed into other color pies. This way each color pie can be missing something without them becoming increasingly deviant the farther you move from the base color pie.

EDIT EDIT like massive eldrazi?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:09 pm 
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Yeah @Knifethrower has the right idea. Most of my train of thought comes from trying to at least find a balance between all the elements in the game for each color pie that this would create.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:56 pm 
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Eldrazi seem to be a good, flavorful way to make up for any missing mechanics between each color pie since they're interdimensional beings. Although, there are lots of people who would prefer the world of Magic without the Eldrazi.

I think the point is for each color pie to be a little bit deviant. Not every color pie is going to develop every mechanical element in all of the other color pies, and that's OK. It's possible that in exploring new color pies, we will find mechanics that make sense for some of those colors, but don't quite fit in the traditional color pie.

This is a good discussion, guys. Let's keep it going. :)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:41 am 
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I don't feel inspired enough to create a text spoiler, but here's the most up-to-date imgur gallery of purple I've constructed:

https://imgur.com/a/5of3Z

This is a project that has been going for many, many years and take inspirations from various attempts at sixth color that have come before. I can recall going through like 20+ or so projects though obvious some of them had a much greater influence on the set than others.

The cards are in alphabetical order so they're all over. There's actually like 3 or 4 different archetype concepts where any one of them could for fill purple's function in a single set (so that can make the cards look pretty random). This means that if I were to "inject" purple into a set/block, I would take a subset of purple's abilities present here and formulate a gameplan from them.

Here are some of the things that purple does:
  • "focus" (fluid buffs on your turn / take additional upkeep steps)
  • "delusion" (temporal life gain)
  • "dreamwalk" (turning rules/perspectives around - in this case combat)
  • "awareness" (can block anything)
  • "pull" is actually a mechanic I dropped but it's inspiration is the Flagbearer mechanic
  • & affinity ("infinity and emptiness")
  • exile manipulation / recursion, flicker until end of turn, stealing opponent's stuff from exile, etc
  • cares about enchantments (animation for example)
  • aversion for graveyard (ie. "if you have no cards in your grave", "this gets -1/-1 for each card in your grave", etc)
  • draw from bottom
  • spells cost more until end of ...
  • if a card is about move to a specific zone, instead it moves to the zone of your choice
  • exchanging power UEOT
  • setting p/t to X/X, setting power to 0
  • colorless mana generation (enchantments that bounce to hand as a cost)
  • fetching cards from outside the game / sideboard

This is the old MSE thread I made for this project. You can found discussion about the flavor there among other things.

I'm happy to answer any questions you may have.




As for this "Color Dodecahedron" I can't really make heads or tail of it. It seems to be based on the assumption that the current colors are somehow hallow and are purposeful itself. The mechanics are rather arbitrary at their core essence (supporting flavor that's based on like D&D or whatever), and really, it would make more sense if the color pie actually followed the color wheel (rainbow spectrum). There's hardly any reason as to why the game couldn't have four or six colors - it has been just decided that it has five. For example, mechanically white doesn't have that much to do that is truly something only it could do, and similarly blue is lacking in flavor - it's the "smart" color with psionics, telekinetics, and such that feels rather out of place in an otherwise high fantasy reality.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:32 am 
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Eldrazi seem to be a good, flavorful way to make up for any missing mechanics between each color pie since they're interdimensional beings. Although, there are lots of people who would prefer the world of Magic without the Eldrazi.

Using overcosted cards to make up for missing mechanics seems a little extreme.
Using "colorless is a color" cards is also a little extreme.

I think the point is for each color pie to be a little bit deviant. Not every color pie is going to develop every mechanical element in all of the other color pies, and that's OK. It's possible that in exploring new color pies, we will find mechanics that make sense for some of those colors, but don't quite fit in the traditional color pie.

I swear if a color pie would end up not having counterspells, burn, or board wipe, I would be pretty upset. It's Kamigawa tier strength for any block using that color pie.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:47 am 
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I swear if a color pie would end up not having counterspells, burn, or board wipe, I would be pretty upset. It's Kamigawa tier strength for any block using that color pie.

I think you're making a mistake by assuming colors can't have mechanical overlap. in the modern pie, two colors have burn, three have board wipe, two have life gain (with a third that gets it in the context of life drain), four have card draw, and so on. there's plenty of examples of multiple colors sharing a mechanic. so yes, if you gave brown counterspells so that the secondary black-red pentagon had a color with counterspells, then the secondary blue-black one would have two colors that did. but, like, that's not actually a problem. you don't need to make sure that all the mechanics are distributed perfectly if you allow for overlap where appropriate.

:duel:

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:57 am 
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razorborne wrote:
I swear if a color pie would end up not having counterspells, burn, or board wipe, I would be pretty upset. It's Kamigawa tier strength for any block using that color pie.

I think you're making a mistake by assuming colors can't have mechanical overlap. in the modern pie, two colors have burn, three have board wipe, two have life gain (with a third that gets it in the context of life drain), four have card draw, and so on. there's plenty of examples of multiple colors sharing a mechanic. so yes, if you gave brown counterspells so that the secondary black-red pentagon had a color with counterspells, then the secondary blue-black one would have two colors that did. but, like, that's not actually a problem. you don't need to make sure that all the mechanics are distributed perfectly if you allow for overlap where appropriate.

:duel:

True, but I also fear a color pie where a color is fairly overpowered. For example, what if brown becomes the ultimate control color, with board wipe, counterspells, AND card draw, that no other color can beat in that respect? That doesn't make for a fun game.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:45 pm 
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razorborne wrote:
I swear if a color pie would end up not having counterspells, burn, or board wipe, I would be pretty upset. It's Kamigawa tier strength for any block using that color pie.

I think you're making a mistake by assuming colors can't have mechanical overlap. in the modern pie, two colors have burn, three have board wipe, two have life gain (with a third that gets it in the context of life drain), four have card draw, and so on. there's plenty of examples of multiple colors sharing a mechanic. so yes, if you gave brown counterspells so that the secondary black-red pentagon had a color with counterspells, then the secondary blue-black one would have two colors that did. but, like, that's not actually a problem. you don't need to make sure that all the mechanics are distributed perfectly if you allow for overlap where appropriate.

:duel:

True, but I also fear a color pie where a color is fairly overpowered. For example, what if brown becomes the ultimate control color, with board wipe, counterspells, AND card draw, that no other color can beat in that respect? That doesn't make for a fun game.

well, sure, but then you just don't put all those things together, or if you do, you make some of them secondary or tertiary mechanics so at least it doesn't get the best versions of them.

:duel:

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:19 pm 
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Developing the ideology of the whole dodecahedron seems like an insurmountable task where you inevitably fail to make each color feel like a color in itself, especially when you work with the base colors. If you take white as an example, it now gets a third color that it is on positive terms with, and two new color pairs it is ideologically opposed to. That is five new relationships for each established color. What is Orange doing that White appreciates, but Green and Blue doesn't?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:09 pm 
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Mown wrote:
Developing the ideology of the whole dodecahedron seems like an insurmountable task where you inevitably fail to make each color feel like a color in itself, especially when you work with the base colors. If you take white as an example, it now gets a third color that it is on positive terms with, and two new color pairs it is ideologically opposed to. That is five new relationships for each established color. What is Orange doing that White appreciates, but Green and Blue doesn't?


This is really interesting, since it suggests that colours are defined, at the end of the day, by their relationships to other colours. I don't know whether this is true or not, just really interesting.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:17 pm 
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Image is down.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:29 pm 
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Image is down.

Fixed. Photobucket is now officially the worst. Long live imgur.

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