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 Post subject: [WVB] Monks in Wavebreak
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:19 am 
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(Wavebreak archives)
(Monks in Ossia)

Monks are another class that's sort of grown away from their original intent. they were originally a lifegain-based mid-tier beatdown deck, but it turns out that incidental lifegain is actually really powerful so they kinda wound up way better than the rest of the format. (The original design of Preacher of Unity didn't help. don't ask.) that's still gonna be a thing but I'm being more careful with it and it won't be as omnipresent.

the dual-classes are at 2, 3, 4, and 5. they're a mid-cost deck so I'm gonna pad the 3 and 4 slots. further, the 2 and 3 are white and the 4 and 5 are green, so I'm gonna try to add some diversity to the curve.

CYCLE 1: COMMON ENABLER, W/RACE KEYWORD

Temple Vanguard-
Creature-Centaur Monk (C)
Volley (Whenever this creature attacks, it deals 1 damage to defending player.)
Whenever Temple Vanguard becomes blocked it gets +2/+2 until end of turn.
"The Ringpeaks have housed the wretched Herdless long enough. We will reclaim our Isle. We will restore our home."~Kogoth Thundertrail
2/1

3-drop that swings for 3 and is hard to block safely. I considered making it a 2/2 but 4/4 is really hard to handle on 3 so I went 2/1. yay. intrigue. not much to say here, just a solid midcost body that isn't all that good for archers or druids because it can't block well and isn't big enough. maybe Scouts want it too. I don't know. you tell me. or don't? I'm out of things to say and really I have been for a while but this whole thing looks more impressive if I write a bunch of words so it looks like I put a lot of thought into it and then people won't argue with me because they didn't actually read it and they don't want to admit that so then I win all the arguments before they begin and everyone thinks I'm great at this when I'm actually just belligerent and loud.

CYCLE 2: COMMON LORD

Ancestral Remembrant-
Creature-Wolf Monk (C)
Ancestral Remembrant enters the battlefield with a number of +1/+1 counters on it equal to the number of Monk cards in your graveyard.
"The past creates the future."
2/2

I was worried about that sort of unbounded late-game scaling at common, but undergrowth scavenger says I'm good. compared to scavenger this gets to reasonable body size faster probably, but can't get as nuts-big probably 'cause it only counts your yard and your dudes. it could count all yards but then it'd randomly be way better in the mirror and why would I want that.

CYCLE 3: UNCOMMON LORD

Lightgrove Purist-
Creature-Dryad Monk (U)
At the beginning of your upkeep, if you control no non-Monk creatures, gain life equal to the number of Monks you control.
Meili's world has no room for compromise.
3/4

this can be a lot of life yeah but it asks a lot in return. most limited decks aren't going to be able to fill up with just on-class dudes, you'll usually have a couple stragglers, and even one blows it up. this isn't something I intend to do a lot of, but the Monks seemed like they could use the drawback. plus I was flicking through uncommon white life gain creatures for inspiration and Zealots En-Dal came up and I figured I could do it better.

CYCLE 4: UNCOMMON MANA ROCK OR MULTICOLORED ENCHANTMENT

Teachings of the Temple-
Enchantment (U)
Whenever a Monk you control deals damage, you may gain 1 life.
"The herd before the self."~The First Precept

probably not that good. I avoided straight lifelink due to flashbacks to the original Preacher and limited games ending with over 50 life. some comparable things like righteous cause and noble purpose cost 5, but I'm under no illusion that those are powerful. still this is an effect that can be pretty oppressive if it's good but it's one that I think fits the tribe well, so I'm putting it here as a showcase without costing it where it can cause serious problems. note though that it does play great with Volley. it's a coincidence that it wound up aligned with Centaurs but it's a good one.

anyway next time Archers and tigers and bears oh my!

:duel:

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Pro Tour: YMTC: SECOND ONE IS OVER STAY TUNED FOR THIRD ONE
The BLOCK I'm currently pretending I'll finish: Fleets Of Ossia (complete!) | Wavebreak (complete!) | The Second Flood (in progress!)
Razorborne and friends teach music theory to chumps like you: 12tone


Last edited by razorborne on Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:48 am 
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Teachings of the Temple would work great if it could give 1.5 life.

Perhaps an end step trigger that gives fixed life? "At the beginning of the end step, if two or more Monks you control dealt damage this turn, you gain 3 life"? Not every tribal card needs to count.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:50 am 
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Riorvard wrote:
Teachings of the Temple would work great if it could give 1.5 life.

Perhaps an end step trigger that gives fixed life? "At the beginning of the end step, if two or more Monks you control dealt damage this turn, you gain 3 life"? Not every tribal card needs to count.

not all of them do, of course, but this cycle does. maybe that's something I should put into the next set: a cycle that thresholds but does it at a higher-than-1 number. so far all my threshold guys have topped at 1. (unless you count beastwell shipwright and whitesand engineer which kinda technically top at 7 but they don't look it.) I agree 1.5 would be nice. I considered costing it at 5 and making it 2 life but oh man could that get out of hand.

:duel:

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I tend to agree with Razor.

Pro Tour: YMTC: SECOND ONE IS OVER STAY TUNED FOR THIRD ONE
The BLOCK I'm currently pretending I'll finish: Fleets Of Ossia (complete!) | Wavebreak (complete!) | The Second Flood (in progress!)
Razorborne and friends teach music theory to chumps like you: 12tone


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:51 am 
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I think it would be a lot more fun at 5 and 2. It's ok to have uncommons that can get out of hand and do silly things.

For what it's worth, I think you should be able to sacrifice the enchantment to get an Overrun effect or similar that scales with your life total. That way your rampant lifegain at least ends the game quickly.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:30 am 
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I think it would be a lot more fun at 5 and 2. It's ok to have uncommons that can get out of hand and do silly things.

For what it's worth, I think you should be able to sacrifice the enchantment to get an Overrun effect or similar that scales with your life total. That way your rampant lifegain at least ends the game quickly.

eh, I did the sac thing with Ride the Deathwinds (with global pump, even) and I don't want the cycle to look too same-y.

question for the limited players around here: at 5 and 2 would you consider running this?

:duel:

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I tend to agree with Razor.

Pro Tour: YMTC: SECOND ONE IS OVER STAY TUNED FOR THIRD ONE
The BLOCK I'm currently pretending I'll finish: Fleets Of Ossia (complete!) | Wavebreak (complete!) | The Second Flood (in progress!)
Razorborne and friends teach music theory to chumps like you: 12tone


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:31 am 
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I wouldn't run it if it was one mana, personally.

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YMtC: My Deck of Many Things | NGA Masters | 2 | 3 | Roses of Paliano | Duel Decks: War of the Wheel | Jakkard: Wild Cards | From Maral's Vault | Taramir: The Dark Tide
Solphos: Solphos | Fool's Gold | Planeswalker's Guide | The Guiding Light | The Weight of a Soul
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:32 am 
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at some point life gain numbers get big enough to be worthwhile. martyr of sands saw constructed play, even after proclamation of rebirth. that point is generally not particularly fun, especially when it's dangerously repeatable. I'm fine with it being silly if it's not good but I can't have it be both.

:duel:

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I tend to agree with Razor.

Pro Tour: YMTC: SECOND ONE IS OVER STAY TUNED FOR THIRD ONE
The BLOCK I'm currently pretending I'll finish: Fleets Of Ossia (complete!) | Wavebreak (complete!) | The Second Flood (in progress!)
Razorborne and friends teach music theory to chumps like you: 12tone


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:50 am 
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I'll be honest, I belive it's straight-up terrible. I'd hazard it's a 'trap' card.

I really like the commons.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:20 am 
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Have anyone mentioned the effect is more or less as potent as Staff of the Mind Magus (and its bros)?

In a vacuum, if i may theory craft, this is worse: since dealing damage is more associated with combat (thus, trading/card loss)
while Staff you gain from pure positive measures - stuff you do anyway. You card could be better in the long run but really not that much better that warrant a 2-color+1CMC difference.

For being in 2 color, I really would see it costing just .

EDIT: @the 1.5 life comment, how about
"Whenever a monk you control deals or would be dealt damage, gain 1 life."

Since Monk, not particular to your world, likes to Take damage, too : P


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:25 am 
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theatog wrote:
Have anyone mentioned the effect is more or less as potent as Staff of the Mind Magus (and its bros)?

In a vacuum, if i may theory craft, this is worse: since dealing damage is more associated with combat (thus, trading/card loss)
while Staff you gain from pure positive measures - stuff you do anyway. You card could be better in the long run but really not that much better that warrant a 2-color+1CMC difference.

completely disagree. barring specific exceptions, Staff only gives you 1 life per card. Teachings can give you an unbounded amount. with a single swing from an activated temple sentinel, it gives you 3. if your sentinel survives that attack, its next swing gains you 3 more. that's 6 life from a single card. sentinel is, of course, almost uniquely powerful in this regard (although anything with volley will net you at least 2) but even, say, leafbender goliath will likely deal damage numerous times before it dies. also I'm confused as to how, given that combat is the game's primary win condition, you don't view it as "stuff you do anyway".

on an unrelated note, welcome back!

:duel:

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I tend to agree with Razor.

Pro Tour: YMTC: SECOND ONE IS OVER STAY TUNED FOR THIRD ONE
The BLOCK I'm currently pretending I'll finish: Fleets Of Ossia (complete!) | Wavebreak (complete!) | The Second Flood (in progress!)
Razorborne and friends teach music theory to chumps like you: 12tone


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:32 am 
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I don't think you can strictly measure it in life per card perspective.
I mean, sure you can do that, but then you might also want to humor the potential of Average-life-per-turn-in-an-average-game perspective as well.

Edit: As you said it yourself, "a single swing...." is conditional. Staff give you 1 per card unconditionally. just echoing my point above.

i.e. Situation where the board is stalemate (or your creatures are strictly inferior) and it thus become a dead card.
Or you have no monks. (not all that unlikely in limited, even if you built around it)

Unrelated: Thank you so much :D


Last edited by theatog on Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:35 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:33 am 
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I must say raz has compelling arguments with regards to the comparison, but I still believe the card is pretty bad. I mean, Staff of the Mind Magus is terrible, so being situationally a bit better than it doesn't mean much.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:42 am 
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razorborne wrote:
also I'm confused as to how, given that combat is the game's primary win condition, you don't view it as "stuff you do anyway".

on an unrelated note, welcome back!

:duel:

Sorry. Let me clarify stuff you more constantly do. Stuff that is more likely to happen every turn. Combat is conditional. It's like a loot on an enchantment (one of the mode in blue siege/Thessa) is more expensive than a loot on a damage trigger.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:35 pm 
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theatog wrote:
I don't think you can strictly measure it in life per card perspective.
I mean, sure you can do that, but then you might also want to humor the potential of Average-life-per-turn-in-an-average-game perspective as well.
well, sure. the average life per turn on the staff is 1. well, a little less than 1 actually, since if you're running Staff your deck has cards that are neither blue nor islands, but we can call it 1. with Teachings the number is much harder to nail down, but given that Monks are on the aggressive end of the spectrum it's likely they'll be dealing damage most turns, and even when they're not attacking there's a good chance

theatog wrote:
Edit: As you said it yourself, "a single swing...." is conditional. Staff give you 1 per card unconditionally. just echoing my point above.

i.e. Situation where the board is stalemate (or your creatures are strictly inferior) and it thus become a dead card.
Or you have no monks. (not all that unlikely in limited, even if you built around it)
the situations where it becomes worse than staff are stalemates, where lifegain isn't particularly useful once you're out of immediate burn range, and situations where you have no creatures, where lifegain isn't particularly useful on its own because it merely forestalls the inevitable. the situations where Teachings is a stronger effect are, well, races, the only time lifegain really matters. sure, it's worse than Staff in situations where both cards suck, but it has a lot more potential in situations where either of them could possibly be good.

Azhorium wrote:
I must say raz has compelling arguments with regards to the comparison, but I still believe the card is pretty bad. I mean, Staff of the Mind Magus is terrible, so being situationally a bit better than it doesn't mean much.
oh it's certainly bad. I might up it to 5 and 2 to bait the trap, though, that does seem more fun. I just worry about the games someone runs it and winds up just taking over and gaining like 20 life off it. it probably won't matter in terms of winning, but it matters in terms of fun as the opponent.

:duel:

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I tend to agree with Razor.

Pro Tour: YMTC: SECOND ONE IS OVER STAY TUNED FOR THIRD ONE
The BLOCK I'm currently pretending I'll finish: Fleets Of Ossia (complete!) | Wavebreak (complete!) | The Second Flood (in progress!)
Razorborne and friends teach music theory to chumps like you: 12tone


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:42 am 
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So I've been browsing the FoO threads for what seems like ages now, and I still don't get it. I mean, wolves? It seems like you're just throwing a bunch of arbitrary and obscure tribes at the wall and making spreadsheets of the paint splatter. How many tribes ARE there? And how is the set supposed to draw players in with the tribe archetypes when those tribes are as uniconic as, y'know… wolves?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:53 am 
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Obscure types are the best and we don't need to draw in players because we don't make money, we just make fun for ourselves.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:45 am 
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So I've been browsing the FoO threads for what seems like ages now, and I still don't get it. I mean, wolves? It seems like you're just throwing a bunch of arbitrary and obscure tribes at the wall and making spreadsheets of the paint splatter. How many tribes ARE there? And how is the set supposed to draw players in with the tribe archetypes when those tribes are as uniconic as, y'know… wolves?

yeah wolves never appear in folklore. they have no cultural resonance whatsoever. my bad.

:duel:

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I tend to agree with Razor.

Pro Tour: YMTC: SECOND ONE IS OVER STAY TUNED FOR THIRD ONE
The BLOCK I'm currently pretending I'll finish: Fleets Of Ossia (complete!) | Wavebreak (complete!) | The Second Flood (in progress!)
Razorborne and friends teach music theory to chumps like you: 12tone


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 5:22 pm 
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Werewolves, maybe. But having wolves in Bant colors doesn't make sense.

I mean no offense. I'm just wondering how you picked your races and classes, because from the perspective of a casual observer, it kinda all blends together to the point where none of the tribes evoke much identification or oomph for me, except Pirates and maybe Gargoyles.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:24 pm 
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Werewolves, maybe. But having wolves in Bant colors doesn't make sense.
outside werewolves, wolves are often depicted as cunning and wise hunters, as opposed to mindless brutes. this is an extension of that.

I mean no offense. I'm just wondering how you picked your races and classes, because from the perspective of a casual observer, it kinda all blends together to the point where none of the tribes evoke much identification or oomph for me, except Pirates and maybe Gargoyles.
a) really? Trolls don't do anything for you? Faeries? Centaurs? Elementals? Djinn? you find none of those resonant in any way? b) the concept behind Fleets of Ossia is explained here.

:duel:

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I tend to agree with Razor.

Pro Tour: YMTC: SECOND ONE IS OVER STAY TUNED FOR THIRD ONE
The BLOCK I'm currently pretending I'll finish: Fleets Of Ossia (complete!) | Wavebreak (complete!) | The Second Flood (in progress!)
Razorborne and friends teach music theory to chumps like you: 12tone


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 12:55 am 
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I need to see a table of all the tribes. Can you point me to that?

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