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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:01 pm 
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See I like the idea of this topic but a lot of the ideas handed out unprintable especially as an evergreen keyword which has to be on at least you know a handful of cards each set including commons. If it's not something you could see having the same depth and spread as like Haste then it's probably not a good idea


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:57 pm 
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Battering Fish - :u:
Creature - Fish
Indestructible during your turn
1/1


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:24 pm 
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Another way to think about evergreen keywords (compared to my lifecycle post) is what I'm calling "The 3 Levels of Interaction: Regulations, Combat, and Damage."

  1. Regulations
    This category defines rules and restrictions that regulate how creatures normally function. The following evergreen keywords are placed here:
    1. Haste
    2. Vigilance
    3. Flash
    4. Hexproof
  2. Combat
    This category defines how creatures attack and block. The following evergreen keywords are placed here:
    1. Flying
    2. Menace
    3. Reach
    4. Defender
  3. Damage
    This category alters how creatures assign and receive damage. The following evergreen keywords are placed here:
    1. Trample
    2. First strike
    3. Double Strike
    4. Deathtouch
    5. Lifelink

    In addition, you have multi-tiered keywords: indestructible works in category 1 and 3; protection works in 1, 2, and 3. Neither are easily usable at common.

Separating like this, I think finding ideas that fit category 1 is a very difficult task. The other categories are much easier. The evergreen probably exists in category 3, as evasion isn't something they need a new go at (though there might be a perfect fit out there still).

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Last edited by Rush_Clasic on Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:12 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:42 pm 
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Best evasion choice I've seen is a stealth-flavored "Can't be blocked except by creatures with (vigilance or?) defender." Something involving a P/T swap doesn't work if we want to keep it static, although the closest is "Swap this creature's power and toughness when it's not your turn." But that makes it not do anything on X/X minions, which makes it too niche. There's also the Battlecast thing—Whenever this creature attacks or blocks, you may cast a spell as though it had flash—but that stacks, is triggered, and isn't evergreen. I've tinkered with trying to port Scout from Legends of Runeterra, but the MtG wording would be really tricky to get right, and it's far more prone to degeneracy here than it is in that game.

I honestly think "immune to AoE" and "Treasurelink" are the two best options we've come up with in this thread, and that there might not be anything better to look for.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:02 pm 
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Shift flying down in black then up in red. C'mon Red's Iconic creatures have flying while black's may but aren't really guaranteed. You can even shift Reach from Red to Black then and give Black more Spiders.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:26 am 
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Shift flying down in black then up in red. C'mon Red's Iconic creatures have flying while black's may but aren't really guaranteed. You can even shift Reach from Red to Black then and give Black more Spiders.

+1 for black Spiders.

It's a little late now, but putting Menace in Dimir instead of Rakdos back when they first flavored the keyword would have also helped balance things out a lot. The game really needs a strong Grixis keyword—this thread focuses on Izzet, but the Dimir issue is there as well.

Rush's list also doesn't account for indestructible (nor the obsolete Regenerate), which I would categorize in a fourth section for death triggers. If the feel and flavor of Undying and Unearth could be simplified down to an evergreen-level keyword that also fits Izzet's flavor better than, say, Golgari's, it would be a great fit too. But that's a tall order in a game with so many complicated rules around leaving the battlefield.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:19 am 
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I don't actually think aoe evasion is a good keyword because it's not going to be relevant in probably 90% of limited games unless we make some drastic changes to design to accommodate for it.
Volatile is nifty, although it reads like it can stack in multiples. An alternative to get around that is "You may swap this creature's power and toughness until end of turn after blockers are declared", which weakens it against combat tricks, but if that is intended, then I would probably let you do it once a turn regardless. P/T swaps are kind of complicated though, and I'm not sure if I like how it will in practice gives red a bunch of high-toughness creatures and blue a bunch of high-power ones, although they do already get some of those as it is.

I personally think erratic is pretty cool, but it's debatable how red and blue it really is.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:53 am 
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Just posting ideas that probably aren't winners.

Labyrinth Tactician
Creature - Minotaur Warrior (C)
Disarm (This creature can use excess damage it would deal to creatures to instead prevent that much combat damage from being dealt to itself.)
4/1

So, if Labyrinth Tactician attacks and is blocked by Grizzly Bears, you can choose to assign 2 combat damage to the Bears and use the other 2 damage to prevent the 2 damage Grizzly Bears would deal to Labyrinth Tactician.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:55 am 
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Isn't that pretty ya know White. I could *kinda* see Blue but it's just not Red. I know looking at stuff that has been explicitly done only is limiting but it still has to actually fit the colors


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:45 am 
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I still like prowess, but hey.

Grand Arcanist
Creature - Vedalken Wizard
Neo-prowess (This creature gets +1/+1 for each noncreature spell you've cast this turn. Neo-prowess doesn't stack.)
: Counter target noncreature spell unless its controller pays X, where X is Grand Arcanist's power.
0/4

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:12 am 
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One of the biggest problems with prowess IMO is that it doesn't scale well to larger creatures.

That's why stackable prowess is IMO actually a good thing.

A


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:20 pm 
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How about a Cleric of Chill Depths variant?

Stunstrike (Whenever a creature blocks or becomes blocked by THIS, tap it and it doesn't untapped during its controller's next untap step)

Trigger but it's not stackable so.

EDIT: original version didn't realize that Cleric only hit creatures it blocked.


Last edited by arathinius on Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:27 pm 
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"Whenever this creature deals combat damage to another creature, that creature doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step."

Unfortunately, it would need to also need to tap on offense.

"Whenever this creature deals combat damage to another creature, tap that creature. It doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step."


Last edited by BelangiaJo on Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:44 pm 
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BelangiaJo wrote:
"When this creature deals combat damage to another creature, that creature doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step."

Unfortunately, it would need to also need to tap on offense.

"When this creature deals combat damage to another creature, tap that creature. It doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step."


Too wordy? It's intuitive enough.

Weirdly, this ability featured in green in Kamigawa: Orochi Ranger


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:38 pm 
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You reminded me of a recent card

Flopfoot wrote:
Crab People - :1::u:
Creature - Crab
Whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player, tap target land that player controls. That land doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.
1/3


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:32 am 
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Isn't that pretty ya know White. I could *kinda* see Blue but it's just not Red. I know looking at stuff that has been explicitly done only is limiting but it still has to actually fit the colors


It looks white because of the damage prevention. But it's a mechanic the rewards high power and works sort of like p/t switching. I didn't find a way to word it without damage prevention, but I bet it would look less outlandish in red if I could.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:06 am 
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Ephemeral (Treat this creature as though it doesn't exist unless it's your turn and/or a combat phase.)

Basically immune to everything sorcery-speed your opponent could do to interact with it. I submitted this before and people pointed out the drawback of being unable to block, so I added "and/or a combat phase." Reminder text wording borrowed from Teferi's Protection.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:14 am 
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How about streamlinging it in the opposite direction?

Ephemeral (This creature doesn't exist except during combat phases.)

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:46 am 
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Does that even work with ETB effects?

I kinda like this in concept as something of a reverse hexproof, though it is probably less universally useful than hexproof, especially in Limited formats, since most interaction is instant speed anyway.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:05 am 
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This doesn’t really fit the goal of the thread, but I was looking at raz’s overpowered Foulmouthed Kneecapper and thought it could be balanced, and be a red punisher effect, if it made your opponent pay either :1: or 2 life more


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