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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:36 am 
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I had gisa's bidding in earlier, and they do work well as a madness card and with Indulgent aristocrat.
Then the spoilers happened and we neither got accursed witch nor triskaidekaphobia, and I felt the deck would have to be more 'classical' as a result, instead of just flying over and gumming up the floor with blocks.
I Replaced by read the bones to help bind the deck and find its power cards.
2 2/2s for 4 is on the weakish side, 2 instant 2/2s at 3 for madness is quite good though.

It's though, I kinda wanna force the tribal aspect from Indulgent aristocrat, because he's a powerfull dude, but I felt that could've been good because of the drain enchants we might have gotten as 'reach'. Now it gets into the issue of exposing itself to whipes and having trouble crawling back, probably relying on a walker/elusive tormentor to finish in some matches instead... Not sure if this direction can get there.

The healers don't drain for massive amounts, but the Cliffhaven Vampires see alot of synergy. From Under the Floorboards gain life. Ayli, eternal pilgrim gains life, Kalastria healers gain life, Drana's Emissary gains life, Indulgent Aristocrat can pump up Call the Bloodline tokens to ..... gain life, Kalitas has Lifelink.He doesnt quite drain as much as his big brother though, so without the drain enchants he's probably indeed a cut.

Maybe i'll have to experiment with a mix of retreats and vamps and see how far i can get instead....


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:58 pm 
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I noted how heavily you focused on triggering cliff haven, but that's way too much work to make a bad four-drop into an average four-drop IMHO. Even with all of that, you're still probably look at it dealing less than 4 damage on average per turn. That's not nearly enough for a card that asks so much of you as a build around.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:32 pm 
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yeah it definately worked better in cockatrice with the 2 Accursed Witch and the 2 Triskaidekaphobia.... ok so this was a failure :p


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:21 am 
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Last edited by yirkon on Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:43 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:32 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:17 pm 
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randomname wrote:
I noted how heavily you focused on triggering cliff haven, but that's way too much work to make a bad four-drop into an average four-drop IMHO. Even with all of that, you're still probably look at it dealing less than 4 damage on average per turn. That's not nearly enough for a card that asks so much of you as a build around.

Highly disagree; idk about his build, but mine places a fair amount of emphasis on gaining life to trigger a number of abilities, including Cliffhaven and I've never been disappointed with him (in my own build he's a 3-of). There are obviously times when he's a bad stand alone or topdeck, but he meshes so well with so many of the pieces, that I think he's well worth it.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:10 am 
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I tried to edit Rabblemaster's decklist based on everyone's suggestions, because I'm interested in the concept. Went with
-4 x Kalastria Healer
-1 x Carrier Thrall
-1 x Read the Bones
-1 x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
+2 x Grasp of Darkness
+2 x Gisa's Bidding
+2 x Twins of Maurer Estate
+1 x Cliffhaven Vampire

First game: Simic Tempo with Ulamog: Win. Only had 3 lands from the starting hand the whole game, still somehow managed to deplete my opponent with 2 flying Heir of Falkenreath
Second game: G/R wolves. Loss. Creatures much bigger than mine.
Third game: G/W/B midrange something. Win. Aristocrats saccing Gaea's bidding was useful, Sorin sealed the win.
Fourth game: G/B/U fog mill. Beat him down with Drana's Emissary and Elusive Tormentor while doing +1 on Ob Nixilis every turn. Anguished unmaking dealt with tutelage.

So 3/1. Positive result, but the decks I faced weren't exactly top meta, which I think are full edlrazi ramp and superfriends. When playing this it often feels like there are 2 different decks in there, one more focused on tokens/saccing with aristocrat/ayli, the other on madness, and you get some pieces of one and the other but not enough to make them both work.

chile125 wrote:
Highly disagree; idk about his build, but mine places a fair amount of emphasis on gaining life to trigger a number of abilities, including Cliffhaven and I've never been disappointed with him (in my own build he's a 3-of). There are obviously times when he's a bad stand alone or topdeck, but he meshes so well with so many of the pieces, that I think he's well worth it.


Mind posting your list?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:30 am 
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There are two kinds of vamps: Rakdos is the all in aggro with madness. Orzhov has the lifelink/lifeloss subtheme and is much slower. I think other decks do midrange better, but it still features some very powerful B/W cards.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:36 am 
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I want to share the Orzhov control deck I built inspired by DJ0045's "skeleton engine" idea in this esper thread: viewtopic.php?f=61&t=14314. It just passed the test of beating 3 RDW decks in a row (2 of them which were on the play) so I decided it's ready to share.

Perpetuum Sceletus

Creature(9)
4 x Sanitarium Skeleton
2 x Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
1 x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 x Archangel Avacyn
1 x Linvala, the Preserver

Instant(2)
2 x Anguished Unmaking

Sorcery(14)
2 x Declaration in Stone
3 x Murderous Compulsion
3 x Angelic Purge
4 x Read the Bones
2 x Planar Outburst

Enchantment(7)
2 x Sinister Concoction
3 x Call the Bloodline
2 x Suppression Bonds

Planeswalker(3)
1 x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 x Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 x Sorin, Grim Nemesis

Land(25)
6 x Plains
2 x Shambling Vent
7 x Swamp
2 x Mortuary Mire
2 x Forsaken Sanctuary
2 x Isolated Chapel
2 x Westvale Abbey
2 x Drownyard Temple

View to this deck go to: http://www.magicduelshelper.com/decklis ... 71364f2d25

Created using Magic Duels Helper: http://www.magicduelshelper.com


Combos:
Sanitarium Skeleton + Call the Bloodline is " put a 1/1 black vampire knight token with lifelink on the battlefield, instant speed". FOR INFINITY. Only limited by mana. To realize how good this is compare it with Westvale Abbey's activated ability.
Call the Bloodline + Murderous Compulsion - destroy target attacking creature, put a 1/1 black vampire knight token on the battlefield (as long as the creature doesn't have vigilance, I guess).
Various combinations of Sanitarium Skeleton, Drownyard Temple, Angelic Purge/Sinister Concoction.

Wincons:
1. Planeswalkers (Gideon's Emblem is, suprisingly, a wincon by itself in this deck)
2. Westvale Abbey. If there's a stalemate and you have 9 mana, with the skeleton engine you can flip it in 2 turns: 2 tokens from Call the Bloodline per turn (don't forget you can activate it once on your turn and once at the end of your opponent's endstep).
3. Angels/Kalitas/Manland beatdown. Or even vampire knight tokens beatdown, I guess.

Card choices, second thoughts:
Spoiler


Thoughts, suggestions? Please take it for a spin, I'm new to deckbuilding but I really feel this deck has something going for it. :) WARNING: Games are loooong.

Edit: Been trying 2xTragic Arrogance in place of 2xPlanar Outburst, starting to feel it's better.


Last edited by Ordev on Thu Apr 14, 2016 11:07 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:45 am 
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I played a 30 minute match versus Orzhov last night. That 2-cost Pilgrim is a HUGE pain. 2 cost for 2/3 deathtouch that can sac blockers for lifegain?! WHAT?! He kept bringing him back too. Man, that game just wouldn't end.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:03 am 
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@ Ordev:


Hilarious list.

Why not go for broke though, here's my version, cosmetic changes :

Creature(8)
3 x Sanitarium Skeleton
2 x Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
1 x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 x Archangel Avacyn
1 x Linvala, The Preserver

Instant(2)
2 x Anguished Unmaking

Sorcery(13)
2 x Declaration in Stone
2 x Murderous Compulsion
2 x Angelic Purge
2 x Read the Bones
2 x Planar Outburst
2 x From Under the floorboards

Enchantment(19)
3 x Sinister Concoction
3 x Call the Bloodline
2 x Suppression Bonds
2 x Vampiric Rites

Planeswalker(3)
1 x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 x Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 x Sorin, Grim Nemesis

Land(25)
6 x Plains
2 x Shambling Vent
7 x Swamp
2 x Mortuary Mire
2 x Forsaken Sanctuary
2 x Isolated Chapel
2 x Westvale Abbey
2 x Drownyard Temple


    From under the Floorboards is a MASSIVE swing in this deck, since you can instant it out and go to work on your turn. I cut 1 skellington, since it's still not really a card even though we have an engine, and 1 angelic purge since it's very good, but sorcery speed and can't hit some massive threats (opposing walkers). From under the Floorboards DOES hit walkers nicely though :p

    Read the Bones is good draw, but it hurts and keeps Ayli from going off. We make lots of dudes and have a skeleton engine, so why not go deeper still with Vampiric Rites ? This card has the added benefit that it can trigger avacyn on demand, and can protect your mythic creatures and Ayli from exile removal, and you can then recur them with Mortuary Mire.
    The skellington engine can now become : Chump a dude, gain 1 life, draw a card. SLOOOOOOW but effective as an engine if you are removing all their threats.

    Swapped a Compulsion for a Concoction, because we want more madness outlets.



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:20 am 
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@Goblin Rabblemaster

Thanks, From under the Floorboards is indeed awesome here and all the other suggestions are great too. I've also been trying Tragic Arrogance instead of Planar Outburst, Kalitas just loooves it - t4 Kalitas, t5 Tragic Arrogance, your aggro opponent has been replaced by AI. It also gives your a flipped avacyn and saves a linvala or ayli... and it's much better against superfriends. A possible downside is that we might have to sacrifice some of the enchantments as there is a higher density of them in your version.

Any tips for the manabase? I actually don't know first thing about mana and just threw in 25 lands randomly, 2 mortuary mires just because. Stole the Drownyard Temple idea from your Dimir Deck. :angel:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:40 am 
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-2 swamp + 2 Forsaken sanctuary or something of that nature.

I like the tragic arrogance idea. Yes it sweeps our enchants, but it's so much better vs lolmythic planeswalker dec that it's probably worth it.

It's great to durdle with. Already grinded out 3 guys, it's fun, but a bit of a fragile deck. Enchant removal on Call the Bloodline HURTS.

I think the mires are very decent here since you can play mire and draw your linvala/kahlitas immediately with Vampiric Rites.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:19 am 
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@ Ordev:

    From under the Floorboards is a MASSIVE swing in this deck, since you can instant it out and go to work on your turn. I cut 1 skellington, since it's still not really a card even though we have an engine, and 1 angelic purge since it's very good, but sorcery speed and can't hit some massive threats (opposing walkers). From under the Floorboards DOES hit walkers nicely though :p


Totally agree on From under the Floorboards. I have also tested this card in several decks and it really feels like huge card in late game situations. It also gives u life gain which is now need in BW deck since we are going to lose life on Bones and Unmaking.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:33 am 
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Meanwhile the deck is really bad :p I mean its fun and all, but the fragility means it stands no chance vs spike lists, it just draws its cards in the wrong order and is then severely underpowered.

Tides sorta worked because of the card filtering from Scholar, Jace and Catalog, but that card filtering doubled as madness outlets. Maybe we SHOULD run 4x RTB in this to find our stuff and ditch rites. Probably it's just not good enough though.

It's funny, I consider Tides a playable deck, you would think with these amazing mythics this would be better. But I'm like 4/7 with it. You know why ? Because everyone's favourite netdeck has moarrrrrrr mythicsssssss

Give the deck an A+ for trolltascticness. C- for playability.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:35 pm 
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Yeah, I lost like 15 ranks with it too :V Granted, there were a lot of pilot errors so I kept trying. Oh well, guess I'll go play your dimir deck some more... Vampires are way cooler than zombie though, too bad they aren't viable (yet)


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:08 pm 
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Have any of you guys built a good Orzhov life gain deck? Something I can use in 2HG. Needs to have good power in the long game.

Never mind found one.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:03 pm 
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Have any of you guys built a good Orzhov life gain deck? Something I can use in 2HG. Needs to have good power in the long game.

Never mind found one.

need them enchants and creatures that do +1hp to you and -1hp to opponents when you gain life. and then +1/+1 to target creature when you gain life.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 7:50 am 
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Ordev wrote:
Vampires are way cooler than zombie though, too bad they aren't viable (yet)


Have you tried this? viewtopic.php?f=52&t=10294&start=400#p438180

I have played just a handful of games, but no loss till the moment...probably sub-par opponents, tho...but feels good to me anyways


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:19 am 
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Ordev wrote:
Vampires are way cooler than zombie though, too bad they aren't viable (yet)


Have you tried this? viewtopic.php?f=52&t=10294&start=400#p438180

I have played just a handful of games, but no loss till the moment...probably sub-par opponents, tho...but feels good to me anyways


Yeah I did, that's what I meant: there are some pretty cool zombie decks around (like this one and Rabble's Rise from the Tides), but I haven't yet seen at least a semi-viable vampire deck... One Kalitas doesn't count :V

Well, okay, the allies-orzhov-drain with Cliffhaven Vampire is okayish, I guess.


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