It is currently Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:28 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 101 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:23 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 30, 2013
Posts: 4407
I know - I must be the worst player, since I'm not over 90%...
Honestly, FW shocks me everytime I look at it.
Of course, most of those games were before the expansion...might not be quite as good now.

Actually - I do have a 90+ percent deck....in fact, a 99%+ deck...
Warsmith! I'm at 100% win rate with it! 1-0 baby!

_________________
PbP Characters


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 9:28 am 
Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 08, 2013
Posts: 285
Yertle -

When I said 'random' tier list, I just meant it was one person's opinion, and everyone here will have a different opinion. So it doesn't matter to me where you rank a certain deck, just as it probably doesn't matter to you where I would rank a certain deck. Tier lists are interesting, but in the end, somewhat meaningless, to me at least.

I'll take the challenge though, sounds fun, as long as it's best to 5 and not 9 (which sounds monotonous). I can't play until the 23rd since I'm out of town, and then I'm going out of town again on the 24th but I can play either on the 23rd or after the 28th. I have my laptop so it's possible I could be on while I'm out of town but my schedule (and internet) isn't predictable.

As far as decks, I like MD vs. any of: CMD, GL, SS, LD (though I've not played MD vs LD a ton so I could be completely wrong). I think EA and SM probably have the advantage. So take your pick of those 4, or time permitting, we can do best to 5 with all of those 4.

steam name is dh50


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 9:52 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 31, 2013
Posts: 460
Location: Australia
As proof that I spend way too much time on this game, here's my spreadsheet data:

MINE
Deck|Win|Loss|Percentage
Avacyn's Glory | 108 | 15 | 87.80%
Up to Mischief | 40 | 10 | 80.00%
Deadwalkers | 103 | 27 | 79.23%
Mind Maze | 55 | 20 | 73.33%
Dodge & Burn | 82 | 30 | 73.21%
Sword of the Samurai | 52 | 24 | 68.42%
Sylvan Might | 52 | 25 | 67.53%
Chant of Mul Daya | 80 | 40 | 66.67%
Sliver Hive | 88 | 46 | 65.67%
Hall of Champions | 49 | 27 | 64.47%
Hunter's Strength | 51 | 30 | 62.96%
Guardians of Light | 71 | 42 | 62.83%
Firewave | 54 | 35 | 60.67%
Bounce and Boon | 22 | 15 | 59.46%
Lords of Darkness | 38 | 27 | 58.46%
Unfinished Business | 18 | 13 | 58.06%
Masks of the Dimir | 55 | 41 | 57.29%
Enchanter's Arsenal | 7 | 6 | 53.85%
Enter the Dracomancer | 31 | 49 | 38.75%


OPPONENTS
Deck|Win|Loss|Percentage
Dodge & Burn | 24 | 30 | 44.44%
Up to Mischief | 7 | 9 | 43.75%
Hall of Champions | 19 | 25 | 43.18%
Avacyn's Glory | 69 | 96 | 41.82%
Deadwalkers | 63 | 97 | 39.38%
Firewave | 35 | 54 | 39.33%
Sylvan Might | 20 | 35 | 36.36%
Mind Maze | 38 | 68 | 35.85%
Lords of Darkness | 27 | 49 | 35.53%
Guardians of Light | 31 | 61 | 33.70%
Chant of Mul Daya | 55 | 114 | 32.54%
Enchanter's Arsenal | 14 | 30 | 31.82%
Sliver Hive | 31 | 67 | 31.63%
Enter the Dracomancer | 22 | 55 | 28.57%
Sword of the Samurai | 13 | 34 | 27.66%
Bounce and Boon | 9 | 30 | 23.08%
Unfinished Business | 11 | 38 | 22.45%
Hunter's Strength | 19 | 87 | 17.92%
Masks of the Dimir | 15 | 77 | 16.30%


COMBINED
Deck|Win|Loss|Percentage
Up to Mischief | 47 | 19 | 71.21%
Dodge & Burn | 106 | 60 | 66.25%
Avacyn's Glory | 177 | 111 | 61.45%
Deadwalkers | 166 | 124 | 57.24%
Hall of Champions | 68 | 52 | 56.67%
Sylvan Might | 72 | 60 | 54.54%
Sword of the Samurai | 65 | 58 | 52.84%
Mind Maze | 93 | 88 | 51.38%
Sliver Hive | 119 | 113 | 51.29%
Firewave | 89 | 89 | 50.00%
Guardians of Light | 102 | 103 | 49.75%
Chant of Mul Daya | 135 | 154 | 46.71%
Lords of Darkness | 65 | 76 | 46.09%
Bounce and Boon | 31 | 45 | 40.78%
Hunter's Strength | 70 | 117 | 37.43%
Masks of the Dimir | 70 | 118 | 37.23%
Enchanter's Arsenal | 21 | 36 | 36.84%
Unfinished Business | 29 | 51 | 36.25%
Enter the Dracomancer | 53 | 104 | 33.75%


All for 1v1, of course.

_________________
"Do you know the difference between an error and a mistake, Ensign? Anyone can make an error. But that error doesn't become a mistake until you refuse to correct it." - Grand Admiral Thrawn

RIP Aaron Allston

Image


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:51 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 12, 2013
Posts: 75
hmm, what would be really useful with these records would be the win:loss for each match-up. For each deck, the ratio for each match-up could be calculated as a percentage, then the average calculated over all match-ups to give the decks corrected ratio. This would be a nice way to account for bias due to differing ratios of good/poor match-ups, effectively removes any influence of the meta. Is that easy, or possible at all, to calculate with the record keeping spreadsheet?


EDIT: @Draconarius: That's a really unusual spread. Completely different to what most people would expect (with a few exceptions; e.g. Deadwalkers, Avacyn's Gloryhole, & Mind Maze). I can only assume you must have some unusual builds also.


Last edited by N1v_M1zzet on Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:53 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 12, 2013
Posts: 75
NeoSilk wrote:
Here's my win/loss from my spreadsheet:
Spoiler


Do you keep your opponents results too?


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:00 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 03, 2013
Posts: 2538
I would shy away from using the opponents data. With only using our data we are atleast giving a semi-accurate depiction of how a semi-skilled person would pilot a decently tuned deck. I understand you want to add the opponents data to provide more data, thus making your sample size larger, giving the impression of more accurate data. But by doing that you're including data from untuned decks, decks of 70, 80 or more size, decks piloted by newbs, n00bs or noobs, decks with **** land ratios, decks with bad curves and games played by people who don't know how to mulligan. So yeah, I wouldn't include that information.

I would also shy away from including information from forum posters that continue to use 70 card decks with 22 lands in them.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:05 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 30, 2013
Posts: 11268
Location: Secret Lair
^^ And that is the whole problem with using data to begin with. We aren't exactly all equal, we definitely each tend to neglect certain decks in favor of other decks, and we definitely definitely aren't playing against rocket scientists of magic. Have you seen the 10 games in a row challenge thread? The pool of things we can definitely say is a little small just because of what our meta is.

_________________
Jack Reviews Anime: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3829

Niklor wrote:
Don't you just hate in when people say their favorite anime character is Eddard Stark.


"Let strength be granted so the world might be mended. So the world might be mended."

Image


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:15 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 31, 2013
Posts: 460
Location: Australia
N1v_M1zzet wrote:
hmm, what would be really useful with these records would be the win:loss for each match-up. For each deck, the ratio for each match-up could be calculated as a percentage, then the average calculated over all match-ups to give the decks corrected ratio. This would be a nice way to account for bias due to differing ratios of good/poor match-ups, effectively removes any influence of the meta. Is that easy, or possible at all, to calculate with the record keeping spreadsheet?

The spreadsheet does track that, but making the table up for the forum would be... time consuming. Unless there's a faster way of doing those tables that I don't know about.

Quote:
@Draconarius: That's a really unusual spread. Completely different to what most people would expect (with a few exceptions; e.g. Deadwalkers & Avacyn's Gloryhole). I can only assume you must have some unusual builds also.

Actually, most of my builds are fairly standard (or at least I like to think they are). UtM and EA probably don't have enough games to have really stabilised yet, so Slivers, Samurai and HS are the biggest surprises for me. I keep expecting to experience a massive losing streak that will knock those three down to where I expect they should be, but so far my luck has been holding.

@sixty: Yeah, that's a fair point, but we'll be using our opponent's data one way or the other; the 70+ card crew and newbies will be generating a fair few of our wins, after all.

_________________
"Do you know the difference between an error and a mistake, Ensign? Anyone can make an error. But that error doesn't become a mistake until you refuse to correct it." - Grand Admiral Thrawn

RIP Aaron Allston

Image


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:33 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Dec 10, 2013
Posts: 97
I suspect that tier list for this will be like tier lists for fighting games like Virtua Fighter where the only accurate tier lists are the ones done by the best players. Spreadsheets are probably more useful for personal records but the opinions of the better players are likely more accurate


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:41 am 
Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 12, 2013
Posts: 75
sixty4half wrote:
I would shy away from using the opponents data. With only using our data we are atleast giving a semi-accurate depiction of how a semi-skilled person would pilot a decently tuned deck. I understand you want to add the opponents data to provide more data, thus making your sample size larger, giving the impression of more accurate data. But by doing that you're including data from untuned decks, decks of 70, 80 or more size, decks piloted by newbs, n00bs or noobs, decks with ****** land ratios, decks with bad curves and games played by people who don't know how to mulligan. So yeah, I wouldn't include that information.

I would never consider mixing opponents data with user data, but considered alone it may actually give a better representation of deck placings in terms of overall power of decks, provided there was enough data for the signal to shine through all the variance in the data. It's always interesting to compare in any case.
sixty4half wrote:
I would also shy away from including information from forum posters that continue to use 70 card decks with 22 lands in them.

This should be no problem, because presumably all their decks would be like that, which would just be reflected by a lower win-loss rate, but the relative performance of the decks should remain similar.

N1v_M1zzet wrote:
hmm, what would be really useful with these records would be the win:loss for each match-up. For each deck, the ratio for each match-up could be calculated as a percentage, then the average calculated over all match-ups to give the decks corrected ratio. This would be a nice way to account for bias due to differing ratios of good/poor match-ups, effectively removes any influence of the meta. Is that easy, or possible at all, to calculate with the record keeping spreadsheet?


I've just designed a feature that produces these tables, using some of the features already provided by MvdL. Hopefully MvdL will do a re-release that includes my added feature.

Cardzerker wrote:
I suspect that tier list for this will be like tier lists for fighting games like Virtua Fighter where the only accurate tier lists are the ones done by the best players. Spreadsheets are probably more useful for personal records but the opinions of the better players are likely more accurate


I don't see how the opinions of the better players could be better than the combined data of the better players...


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:43 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Dec 10, 2013
Posts: 97
N1v_M1zzet wrote:
I don't see how the opinions of the better players could be better than the combined data of the better players...
But there will never be a collection of the combined data of better players


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:50 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 30, 2013
Posts: 11268
Location: Secret Lair
@niv mizzet, the problem with how you want to rank the decks, or frankly ranking the decks in general, is that it is all based on response bias.

We simply do not have the resources or the sample size required to do a tier list that way.


However in the defense of your idea, the only other option is to argue based on our personal opinions of this deck. As demonstrated with bant and dimir, this is also flawed. The only decks we really agree on are which are at the absolute top (DW, AG, and Izzet) and which group are at the very bottom of the pile (dragons, slivers, hs1, and hs2).



Thus........... meh. Both sides have an okay idea. We just don't have the resoures to make a true tier list for this past agreeing on the basic things like AG > Slivers.

_________________
Jack Reviews Anime: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3829

Niklor wrote:
Don't you just hate in when people say their favorite anime character is Eddard Stark.


"Let strength be granted so the world might be mended. So the world might be mended."

Image


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:14 am 
Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 12, 2013
Posts: 75
mjack33 wrote:
@niv mizzet, the problem with how you want to rank the decks, or frankly ranking the decks in general, is that it is all based on response bias.


can you clarify? I don't see any potential for the influence of response bias...


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:24 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 30, 2013
Posts: 11268
Location: Secret Lair
Actually it may not be response bias, but that was the closest word I could think of.

We can't agree on what the best version of each deck is, so we are running different versions (sometimes very different). Add in the fact that there are a ton of 70+ card decks floating around. The data suffers a little because of both of those. You are adding together a bunch of stats based on decks that aren't consistently built.

Also, the stats are technically also suffering from both the tracking and submission of said tracking to this thread both being voluntary.

_________________
Jack Reviews Anime: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3829

Niklor wrote:
Don't you just hate in when people say their favorite anime character is Eddard Stark.


"Let strength be granted so the world might be mended. So the world might be mended."

Image


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:46 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 10, 2013
Posts: 9227
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
TUBARALHO wrote:
FINAL DECK TIERS

Now that we have all 21 decks, we could put every and single one of them on a tier list. Dunno if here on goblins you did something like this for the past DotP, but it should be nice listen everyone opinion on this. The number of tiers should be at your discretion... i would recomend 5 or 6, but its all up to you.

also, if you are an experienced 2HG player, you could work those tiers here too, by naming wich combos are the best.

work it hard gentleman, this may be your last change the defend your colors :evil:



Big happy birthday to Tubaralho! I miss these tier list threads we used to obsessively do with each Planeswalkers game that would come out. Check out Mobius instant reply to this request for tier lists. Too funny

_________________
DCG-MTG wrote:
There's a limited amount of fun to be had in a single game, and this deck will ensure no one has any of it.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:13 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 03, 2015
Posts: 1662
64+1/2 post 7 or sthg basically still / thread though. It was a fun game; but the tier list was quite clear. Just putting that out for anyone picking up the old game for some reason. Avacyn's glory was close to a tier 2 modern deck in a semi-constructed environment. Deadwalkers was maybe slightly better on average (in my memory), but didn't have access to the absolutely broken draws the former deck could get. Either way his top 5 is non-negotiable.

Personally, I take note of Dodge and Burn as maybe the only time in the duels franchise that draw-go was true top tier (although I might personally argue that Duels also has a top dog R/U/X top tier deck, although most of the spells it gets to play are way less sweet and iconic).

btw Hi barnes. First time I open this forum in 3 months, glad to see you shill around :)


Last edited by Goblin Rabblemaster on Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:53 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 10, 2013
Posts: 9227
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Hey Rabble, yeah still a few of us still going :)

_________________
DCG-MTG wrote:
There's a limited amount of fun to be had in a single game, and this deck will ensure no one has any of it.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:36 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 12, 2013
Posts: 1292
Haven't yet delved back into the older games competitively. However, I know what I'm playing in the most recent iteration as a T1 deck: Taking Turns baby!!!

_________________
Who needs good grades when you got SWAG?!?!


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:06 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 10, 2013
Posts: 9227
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Btw Rabble I’m 5-0 with your Jeskai deck. Love it

_________________
DCG-MTG wrote:
There's a limited amount of fun to be had in a single game, and this deck will ensure no one has any of it.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: FINAL DECK TIERS
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:31 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 12, 2013
Posts: 1292
Btw Rabble I’m 5-0 with your Jeskai deck. Love it


Link plz?

_________________
Who needs good grades when you got SWAG?!?!


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 101 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group