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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:45 pm 
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I have to say, it seems very healthy compared to Time Spiral.

WotC_Ethan wrote:
Things have changed a lot in the last sixty years.

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I am so very glad to see WOTC taking this approach. I've heard people speculate that Dominaria's overarching theme henceforward would be post-apocalypse. It was something I looked upon...unfavourably. For all the plane-shaking catastrophes we've seen, the idea that the multifaceted Dominaria of all planes would be reduced to a one-note death world. Good on ya!

@Jaya's aliveness:
Just how fast does an oldwalker's age catch up to them post mending? Do we have a reference point other than Bolas? Because Bolas, being as old as he is may represent an extreme case.
Jaya knows a guy who figured out the immortality thing. Even if she started aging rapidly, as long as she had time to drink from the fountain, she could stabilize her age.
The rapid aging thing is one of my least favourite parts of the mending. As much as I love consistency, this is one I'd wouldn't mind seeing put out to pasture. Unless, it starts pulling its weight in this set that is. Maybe that's why Bolas is here?

...
Jodah, Archmage Eternal
:w::u::b::r::g:
Legendary Creature - Human Wizard
Protection from spells
You may spend mana as though it were mana of any color to cast Legendary spells or activate the abilities of Legendary permanents.
:2:, :t:: Search your library for a legendary card, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library
3/3

I wanted to nominate this for Card of the Week.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:00 pm 
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Jman22 wrote:
... Legendary permanents not being able to be played on the other side of the field makes little sense to me, since you aren't summoning the actual creature but a representation of it. Like, we never had a good explanation for why Khamal red and Khamal green could be in play at the same time other than that, and if that is the explanation for how legends work, then why would we limit them to one side of the field or the other?
...

The only way of solving all the legend problems that I can see is to give legendary cards their own subtype list. Then you'd have.

Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
Legendary - Kahmal
Creature — Human Druid

Seeing as it would work pretty much like planeswalkers just stopped working, I don't see it happening.

@Slivers- should we maybe branch this off into a new thread?
:two: : If slivers were the ultimate predators, they would have long since abandoned petty intraspecies conflict.

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*"To YMTC it up" means to design cards that have value mostly from a design perspective. i.e. you would put them in a case under glass in your living room and visitors could remark upon the wonderful design principles, with nobody ever worring if the cards are annoying/pointless/confusing in actual play

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:10 pm 
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TPmanW wrote:
I am so very glad to see WOTC taking this approach. I've heard people speculate that Dominaria's overarching theme henceforward would be post-apocalypse. It was something I looked upon...unfavourably. For all the plane-shaking catastrophes we've seen, the idea that the multifaceted Dominaria of all planes would be reduced to a one-note death world. Good on ya!
I couldn't agree more. Having those plane-shaking catastrophes in the background of modern day Dominaria is cool because it makes the setting a rich playground for historians and archaeologists, but overall, I think it's time for a recovered and 'healthy' Dominaria as the new baseline.

The complexity and depth of the plane just doesn't get to shine if there's always another apocalypse stealing all the focus. Even Time Spiral block, for all its brilliant easter eggs, its crazy and experimental feel, its wide scope and the three sets' worth of space that it had, was primarily about the global catastrophe, so many of the things and locations on the cards ended up looking quite similar and unspecific. And that's fine; it worked well for what it was trying to do, and Time Spiral itself is still my favourite Magic set. But I think one of the pitfalls Dominaria will have to avoid with its history focus is feeling like a 'Time Spiral light', i.e., trying very hard to do the exact same things but not doing them as well while failing to provide anything new. The history focus is exactly what I want (if it has to have a 'focus' at all), but it would be cool if it was embedded in a deep, loving exploration of what Dominaria looks like today. The vibe I'm getting from the images from the panel - though I'm not entirely happy with all of the stylistic choices - feels a bit like the old Core Sets, like that 'Classic Dominaria' era between the Flood Ages and the Invasion. Combined with lots of easter eggs and nostalgia, this should be pretty much on the right track. I should add that that's only going to work if they treat Magic's sprawling, rich continuity as an asset just this once and not as baggage that needs to be 'massaged' to be managable.

And man, they just have to follow this up with more sets on Dominaria, and quite soon. Doing a global catch-all set for the whole plane is probably not a terrible idea for a stepping stone to post-Mending Dominaria. But a stepping stone that doesn't lead anywhere is no use. They've laid they groundwork now, surely they'll want to build on it too?



TPmanW wrote:
@Jaya's aliveness:
Just how fast does an oldwalker's age catch up to them post mending? Do we have a reference point other than Bolas?
No, because the other Oldwalkers who came out of the woodwork after the Mending all would have had pretty plausible loopholes around the aging part anyway. But according to the info Kelly tweeted almost two years ago (never heard about it back then, so imagine my shock), Creative's stance is that planeswalkers didn't age rapidly at all, they just started aging at their normal rate again, which of course contradicts this whole thing about Bolas, yada yada.

TPmanW wrote:
Jaya knows a guy who figured out the immortality thing. Even if she started aging rapidly, as long as she had time to drink from the fountain, she could stabilize her age.
So yeah, I'm pretty sure they're just going to ignore Jaya surviving the Mending and won't bother with explanations. The Fountain of Youth in all likelihood isn't there anymore. If memory serves, it was buried under a glacier during the Ice Age. There were expeditions looking for it, but apparently they were never seen again, and Jodah actively discouraged people from looking for it. He also had trouble recognising familiar places after the Ice Age because the landscape looked completely different, so any possible remnants of the fountain shouldn't be that easy to find even for Jodah. I mean, there's probably a cool story in there somewhere, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

That said, that fountain has been tantalising me since I read the Ice Age trilogy... Warning: massive fan wank ahead.

Who built it? When? Why was that town deserted? Are there other immortal people who discovered its power? We might as well run with the two versions of the flavour text on Fountain of Youth and postulate that 1.) it was a natural phenomenon, 2.) it was several centuries old when Jodah discovered it, and 3.) the people who built the fountain and the town around it had no idea that it was special. It's a bit strange that nobody would have figured it out accidentally, but maybe you have to be fully submerged in the water for it to have an effect on you. The town could have been deserted for any number of mundane reasons, maybe it was overrun by goblins or barbarians, maybe there was a plague, maybe the worsening climate made farming in the area impossible.

I have that head canon that Zur the Enchanter eventually traced the remnants of the fountain underneath a glacier by magic and succeeded in his quest for immortality. It all fits; he knew Jodah (and even fought him once, apparently), he was roaming the icy wastes and tried to become immortal etc. The Shattered Alliance even features devices that can detect traces of someone's magic, so Zur could have developed them further and attuned them to the trace of the fountain that Jodah was carrying in order to find its original source.

:two:


TPmanW wrote:
The rapid aging thing is one of my least favourite parts of the mending. As much as I love consistency, this is one I'd wouldn't mind seeing put out to pasture. Unless, it starts pulling its weight in this set that is. Maybe that's why Bolas is here?
I agree it was a really awkward and forced thing to introduce and I've never liked it either. But taking it away changes a lot about the way I look at the last ten years of Magic. If they now retcon it or reveal that we've simply been misled about it all along, then I'm going to be pretty upset that we didn't see A LOT more former Oldwalkers in all those years that we've had planeswalkers on cards. And I mean Oldwalkers that we knew before the Mending, not newly made up ones (though those are fine too). You can just tell that they were trying really hard to keep former Oldwalkers from older lore out of Magic with all sorts of excuses for the better part of the last decade, but if those excuses don't apply anymore, everything looks even more lame in retrospect.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:49 am 
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One of the places Time Spiral went wrong IMO (and I should mention that it's my favorite set with the possible exception of Conspiracy) was in the style guide. Instead of having culturally distinct costuming, as they did in Invasion, each color had a costume. All the white humans looked the same, whether they were from New Benalia, or Sursi, or Foriys, or Femeref.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:01 am 
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I realize that the Mending happened after the fight between Ugin and Bolas. Would this be how WotC retcons the accelerated aging part of the Mending?

I mean Origins came out after DTK so perhaps Tarkir retconned a lot of stuff. It still won't make sense however how the Spirit Dragon being alive vs. being dead would have changed that much without another individual's actions.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:49 am 
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I realize that the Mending happened after the fight between Ugin and Bolas. Would this be how WotC retcons the accelerated aging part of the Mending?

I mean Origins came out after DTK so perhaps Tarkir retconned a lot of stuff. It still won't make sense however how the Spirit Dragon being alive vs. being dead would have changed that much without another individual's actions.

It almost certainly can't. Tarkir's entire plot depends on it remaining as unattached to anything as possible. Introducing any element that touches on it would surely have a cascading effect leading to such dubious effect as Sarkhan existing despite literally never being born anymore.

...plus it makes no sense unless somehow the portal of Ugin's bones caused rapid aging.
Which for the record, that rift should have been sealed as PART of the Mending.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:01 pm 
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WotC_Ethan wrote:
One of the places Time Spiral went wrong IMO (and I should mention that it's my favorite set with the possible exception of Conspiracy) was in the style guide. Instead of having culturally distinct costuming, as they did in Invasion, each color had a costume. All the white humans looked the same, whether they were from New Benalia, or Sursi, or Foriys, or Femeref.

#WotCstaff
Exactly, that's what I mean. They were more concerned with hitting the post-apocalyptic theme than with differentiating between different places and cultures. It's a bit disappointing in retrospect, but given all the amazing stuff Time Spiral had to offer, I can forgive that. I still hope Dominaria is going to make different parts of the plane look and feel more distinct again, but from what we've seen so far, it looks like it will. :thumbsup:

And I'm really glad to hear there are still people at WotC who actually like Time Spiral, I was under the impression that it was simply dismissed as a 'mistake' internally. But maybe that's just Maro. (The Conspiracy sets are great too, especially the second one).

I understand if you can't talk about it (yet?), but I'm going to ask anyway: Is there a specific reason why Dominaria is only one set? Getting rid of the rigid two-set structure was probably the right call, but I feel like you guys should have used that opportunity to add to Dominaria if anything, not to just take away the second set and call it a day. People have been waiting for this for 10+ years you know :(

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:51 pm 
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There is a specific reason. The change back to the old Standard rotation really brought home the fact that we needed to bring back the Core Set. The originally-planned second set in Dominaria block became Core Set 2019. More details on that this summer.

That said, both Design and Creative were overflowing with ideas for how to do more sets on the plane of Dominaria, so unless Dominaria bombs badly for some unforeseen reason, I think we'll go back there sometime.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:57 am 
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...
And I'm really glad to hear there are still people at WotC who actually like Time Spiral, I was under the impression that it was simply dismissed as a 'mistake' internally. But maybe that's just Maro. (The Conspiracy sets are great too, especially the second one).

...

I actually had the opposite impression. I thought it was loved by the Wizards*. Maybe not the accountants or maybe the marketers, but certainly by R&D. If anything I think the feeling is that they had too much fun making the set and the only thing they regret is going overboard.

WotC_Ethan wrote:
There is a specific reason. The change back to the old Standard rotation really brought home the fact that we needed to bring back the Core Set. The originally-planned second set in Dominaria block became Core Set 2019. More details on that this summer.

That said, both Design and Creative were overflowing with ideas for how to do more sets on the plane of Dominaria, so unless Dominaria bombs badly for some unforeseen reason, I think we'll go back there sometime.

#WotCstaff

Good to hear. Please also see below and verify Y/N.

*I can think of no better term for employees of a company named Wizards of the Coast.**
**Except Shorecerers.

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*"To YMTC it up" means to design cards that have value mostly from a design perspective. i.e. you would put them in a case under glass in your living room and visitors could remark upon the wonderful design principles, with nobody ever worring if the cards are annoying/pointless/confusing in actual play

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:01 am 
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TPmanW wrote:
*I can think of no better term for employees of a company named Wizards of the Coast.**
**Except Shorecerers.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:33 pm 
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MTG Brown Line be like: "Oh, you think Jaya was surprising? SUPPLIES!!!"

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April is so near yet so far... #RivalsWhut?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:35 pm 
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Oh my, its whatshername

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:33 pm 
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Surprising? Not even remotely. I called that ages ago.
Satisfying on the other hand? Oh yes most certainly.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:54 pm 
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So you have three walkers that have time or similar magics and they havent aged so shenanigans? Especially since Jaya jas aged.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:34 pm 
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LilyStorm wrote:
So you have three walkers that have time or similar magics and they havent aged so shenanigans? Especially since Jaya jas aged.

Jhoira was never a walker, Teferi is no longer a walker, both have access to slow time water, and Karn is a golem. No shenanigans here.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:53 pm 
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They arent walkers but shouldnt they still age since its been a bunch of years?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:48 pm 
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LilyStorm wrote:
They arent walkers but shouldnt they still age since its been a bunch of years?

Their immortality didn't have anything to do with walker powers though.
They're the same age they've been for 1500 years.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:51 pm 
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Oh. Well...Magic story is silly

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altimis wrote:
I never take anytihng Lily says seriously, except for when I take it personally. Then it's personal.
WotC_Ethan wrote:
People, buy more stuff.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:54 pm 
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WotC_Ethan wrote:
There is a specific reason. The change back to the old Standard rotation really brought home the fact that we needed to bring back the Core Set. The originally-planned second set in Dominaria block became Core Set 2019. More details on that this summer.
Huh, that's a lot more straightforward than I expected. The connection between changing back the Standard rotation and reintroducing Core Sets isn't really obvious to me in a vacuum, but I guess I'll just wait and listen to the whole story in summer. I'm not going to act like just another pesky armchair designer on the internet and start an argument along the lines of "Well, that sucks, you should have done XYZ instead". Rather, I'll force a more general suggestion down your throat. I'm almost sure someone at WotC must have thought about it at some point, and I already brought it up two years or so ago, so, I apologise if it bores you to death by now:

You currently have this two-pillar model of roughly 50% new planes, 50% returning planes. Maro has talked a lot about how the current approach to planes poses challenges to dealing with Dominaria because it doesn't have the same kind of "core identity" that you are looking for in your other planes nowadays. He also suggested that that was the main reason why we didn't see any Dominaria in the last ten years.

My suggestion, in a nutshell, is this: How about shifting to a three-pillar model that still mostly focuses on new planes and returning planes, but that treats sets on Dominaria as their own category? That way, we could have semi-regular visits to Dominaria that could each focus on a different part of the plane, which in turn would have a more clear-cut identity than all of Dominaria crammed into one set or block.

The one-set glimpse we'll be getting with Dominaria would probably be the ideal starting point for this; it would introduce newer players to the general scope of the plane, with its most important characters and locations etc. while familiarising the old hands with the general status quo on modern day Dominaria and thus getting everybody on the same page. After that, the way would be clear for, say, a more detailed visit to Jamuraa, and then to Terisiare 2 to 3 years after that, and so on with another part of Dominaria every 2 to 3 years. No one would have to worry about what Dominaria's "core identity" is in the context of the current model. :two:

WotC_Ethan wrote:
That said, both Design and Creative were overflowing with ideas for how to do more sets on the plane of Dominaria, so unless Dominaria bombs badly for some unforeseen reason, I think we'll go back there sometime.
I know it's absolutely not your fault, and I'm sure you mean what you say, but to be quite honest, we've had vague promises like that since after Future Sight, and now it turns out all we're getting is a single Dominaria set eleven years after the last visit, so to a die-hard Dominaria fan it's kind of "yeah, whatever" at this point. That said, I'm excited to see what Dominaria has to offer, and who knows, maybe the right people at WotC are more motivated to return there now that they've started working with the plane again.

Thanks for providing what insights you can and listening to our gripes, Ethan, as always! :thumbsup:


@new image:
Those three were almost a given, but it's satisfying indeed. I guess that's another 'walker slot filled with an old fan favourite who isn't in the Gatewatch. Good job everybody, that's how it's done! Heck, given their flat out statement that the Blackblade is still around and that Dakkon has many fans at WotC, I'm half expecting him to be there too at this point...

I'm quite happy with how Jhoira and Teferi turned out, but dear god, Karn looks terrible. He also upgraded from four to five fingers for no reason? Also, damn, where is JODAH??? Shouldn't he be with Jhoira or something?

I wonder what that tattered sail/wing thingy in the background is? A flying ship? An ornithopter? A dragon?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 8:13 pm 
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