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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:22 am 
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Barinellos wrote:
I've come to feel a.certain amount of conflict over what we can expect from the block, solely on the fact that, while it's a history block, it will still have to push forward the stories we're currently mired in.
I've been thinking that too. And there's actually a third factor that has to find a place in this, namely establishing Dominaria's present state. Even if the spotlight is going to be on history, they need to show how the world has recovered and how all of its elements are interacting in new and interesting ways, with new conflicts and new alliances etc. That's a hell of a lot to do in just one set. Also, "mired" is a pretty accurate description of how the current stories feel to me...


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It's one specific aspect that has me pensive regarding that: Walkers.

Chiefly, as I consider things, this is one place to pull Karn back into the spotlight, but with everything left as it is post-Amonkhet...
As stated, I'm pensive.
Karn is the number one 'walker I want in this. Well, Tamiyo would also be amazing with the premise of the set, so it's close. I also hope we'll pick up the surviving main characters from Time Spiral block where we left them, so Karn would be a perfect fit. I swear, if we don't get an amazing card for Jodah this time...

And I expect her to show up on Ravnica rather than Dominaria sometime soon, but if Kaya turns out to be from Urborg, I called it ages ago.


I've been thinking about ways of getting across the history theme, and one thing that came to mind was that thing they did for the return to Innistrad, namely picking up cards from the first Innistrad block and continuing their story. You know, like Delver of Secrets and his many incarnations. Time Spiral took Ruins of Trokair from Fallen Empires and turned it into Flagstones of Trokair, so maybe Dominaria could give us 'Trokair Excavation' or something like that.

Another cool thing they could do would be cards that are named after Magic novels (or Magic sets, for that matter) that were set on Dominaria. Many of them would make for nice card names. The cards could for all intents and purposes be unrelated to the novels of the same name, but it would be a cool easter egg for old storyline fans. Heck, some of them could be direct references, like just making a non-basic land for the Whispering Woods and calling it 'Whispering Woods', or an enchantment depicting the ruins of Oneah that's called 'Ashes of the Sun'. And then you have more generic names like 'Shattered Chains', 'Bloodlines' or 'Time Streams' for the novels or 'Odyssey', 'Chronicles' or 'Coldsnap' for the sets. They could even look at existing cards that have the same name as a novel or set and reprint some of those that fit.

Flashback seems like a great fit too. Investigate might be a good fit as well, though maybe the name is slightly off for a history flavour, and we already have lots of artifact tokens in the form of Treasures now. But they could certainly find cool ideas for the art on the Clue tokens, like showing that piece of debris with the squid on it you can see in Academy Ruins lying in a glass case at Tolaria West or something. And I still want Flanking back, it was everywhere the last time we saw Dominaria, not getting it now would be really odd.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:48 am 
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We're definitely not getting Flanking back. Too many memory issues.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:08 am 
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Flanking has no memory issues at all. What

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:26 am 
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Another cool thing they could do would be cards that are named after Magic novels (or Magic sets, for that matter) that were set on Dominaria. Many of them would make for nice card names. The cards could for all intents and purposes be unrelated to the novels of the same name, but it would be a cool easter egg for old storyline fans. Heck, some of them could be direct references, like just making a non-basic land for the Whispering Woods and calling it 'Whispering Woods', or an enchantment depicting the ruins of Oneah that's called 'Ashes of the Sun'. And then you have more generic names like 'Shattered Chains', 'Bloodlines' or 'Time Streams' for the novels or 'Odyssey', 'Chronicles' or 'Coldsnap' for the sets. They could even look at existing cards that have the same name as a novel or set and reprint some of those that fit.

Cold snap already exists and isn't coming back, but I like this idea in general.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:18 am 
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astarael7 wrote:
We're definitely not getting Flanking back. Too many memory issues.
Compared to Explore? No, it doesn't.

Besides, it's currently a seven on the Storm Scale: http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/15 ... ing-on-the
So that means "It's unlikely to return, but possible if the right environment comes along", and I'd argue that a set on Dominaria is absolutely the right environment for this. Pretty much every creature on a mount across the plane had it last time, so why establish a planewide mechanical identity and not return to it? An added bonus is that it's an exclusively Dominarian mechanic and thus a good way to make this set feel like Dominaria. Really, it's a fun keyword.

Cold snap already exists and isn't coming back, but I like this idea in general.
Oops, didn't catch that. I did a quick Gatherer search for 'Coldsnap' spelled in one word, so that slipped through. But yeah, it would be a neat way to throw us some easter eggs without really eating up creative or mechanial space. That kind of density is going to be important when you don't allow yourself enough space to begin with.

Edit: Maybe Excavation could be a land subtype? Or how about a cycle of lands that allow you to add (or remove) excavation counters, and when you've reached a certain number of counters (or zero counters), you can sacrifice it for a cool effect? :two:

Edit edit: While I'm at it, how about turning history books and other in-universe sources into artifacts in the spirit of Sarpadian Empires, Vol. VII, or at least giving us flavour text from them? I'm thinking of things like The Antiquities War, Kjeldor: Ice Civilization, Nevinyrral's Necromancer's Handbook, The Underworld Cookbook etc. Could be artifact cards that create tokens or effects that are reminiscent of the thing the books are about.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:10 pm 
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urzatron back in standard


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:11 am 
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Urza lands in standard... One crazy possibility... But could break with the wrong pieces...

The Karnage.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:00 pm 
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astarael7 wrote:
We're definitely not getting Flanking back. Too many memory issues.
Compared to Explore? No, it doesn't.
Explore does something once. That's the exact opposite of a memory issue. For Flanking you have to constantly remember that Flanking doesn't work against other Flankers. That's a memory issue (and a pretty big one, too).

The last time we got back something 7 or lower on the Storm Scale it was Madness in a set where the entire theme was people going insane. Basically, the most perfect match between set-wide flavor and mechanical flavor imaginable. There is no possible way that Flanking rises to that level. Forget Dominarian mechanics, I wouldn't even put it in a top five list of mechanics they brought back in Time Spiral block.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:59 pm 
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Explore still has way more going on. Flanking is super simple and would be spelled out on every card that isn't rare, just like every other keyword.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:44 pm 
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astarael7 wrote:
astarael7 wrote:
We're definitely not getting Flanking back. Too many memory issues.
Compared to Explore? No, it doesn't.
Explore does something once. That's the exact opposite of a memory issue. For Flanking you have to constantly remember that Flanking doesn't work against other Flankers. That's a memory issue (and a pretty big one, too).

Yeah, remember how long it took players to remember that creatures with flying can actually be blocked by creatures with flying? Seriously, how do they expect us to remember that stuff?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:56 pm 
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Quote:
it explores. (Reveal the top card of your library. Put that card into your hand if it's a land. Otherwise, put a +1/+1 counter on this creature, then put the card back or put it into your graveyard.)

Q: What does it do?
A: Makes you take an action and provides results.
Q: What's the action?
A: Revealing your top card.
Q: What are the results
A: That depends on whether you reveal a land or not
Q: If I reveal a land?
A: Into your hand it goes.
Q: If it's a nonland?
A: The creature gets a +1/+1 counter.
Q: And the card? Does it just go back?
A: It goes back or into the graveyard, your choice.

"So, I have to perform an action, check the binary value of the result against the ability for different outcomes, and depending on the outcome possibly choose one of two possible events, neither of which is the event from the other binary value."

Quote:
Flanking (Whenever a creature without flanking blocks this creature, the blocking creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn.)

Q: What does it do?
A: Messes with combat.
Q: How does it mess with combat
A: Things that block this thing get -1/-1. But wait, there's more!
Q: More?
A: Flanking creatures are immune to flanking.
Q: Is that it
A: Pretty much

"So, my opponent has to consider one cause-effect link, that can either be on or in one particular case, off."


Explore outcomes: 5
+1/+1 Counter
No Counter
Card goes to Hand
Card goes to Graveyard
Card Goes back on top

Explore Choices: Variable; 0-1 depending on the flip

Flanking outcomes: 2
-1/-1 to the blocker
No -1/-1 to the blocker

Flanking Choices: 0


Don't get me wrong, I like explore, but it boggles the mind to think that it would be considered less complex or memory intensive than Flanking, which is one of the simplest non-evergreen keywords ever printed.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:19 pm 
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*looks around*

Huh, wow, so much support for Flanking. So, yeah, pretty much what the people above me said.

And I'm with Tevish, I like Explore, it's a useful little keyword with a lot of flexibility and interactivity (Scry, Parley, counters, graveyard shenanigans, what have you), but let's not pretend it isn't an absolute monster when it comes to memory issues. As to Flanking, don't get me wrong, it won't exactly ruin the set for me if it isn't there or anything, but to me personally, it would feel a bit odd to not see it again after the mechanical precedence of our last visit to Dominaria. It would certainly be something that I would instantly connect with.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:32 pm 
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That's....not at all what a memory issue is? Memory issues are created when players have to track something across several turns of the game. Flanking has memory issues because a player has to track which creatures do and do not have the ability, and remember that different combinations produce different outcomes in combat. Explore does not have memory issues because you do all of it right away, and the ability is never relevant after that.

Flying technically has memory issues (and if you watch any new player you will see them struggle with this), but they're heavily mitigated by R&D using Flying literally every set. If Flanking was also used literally every set, then that also wouldn't be a problem.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:08 pm 
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Nobody over 10 years old has ever struggled to understand flying.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:26 pm 
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Huh, wow, so much support for Flanking.

I thought this was sarcasm until I read upwards.

I support flanking, even though it's offensive in nature. Would like to see Knight tribal abuse flanking. Especially on the Ironclaw Orcs, probably as a :rw: faction.
Reason for Ironclaw to be :rw:: They're cowards that don't fight anything more powerful than them. They'd probably (if they were smart, which they are implied to be) try to issue disarmament treaties and go on peacekeeping missions to avoid wars breaking out.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:26 pm 
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astarael7 wrote:
That's....not at all what a memory issue is? Memory issues are created when players have to track something across several turns of the game. Flanking has memory issues because a player has to track which creatures do and do not have the ability, and remember that different combinations produce different outcomes in combat. Explore does not have memory issues because you do all of it right away, and the ability is never relevant after that.

Flying technically has memory issues (and if you watch any new player you will see them struggle with this), but they're heavily mitigated by R&D using Flying literally every set. If Flanking was also used literally every set, then that also wouldn't be a problem.


In addition to this, flying is an extremely flavorful and intuitive ability. "Fliers go over non-fliers" makes instant sense. "Flankers, when attacking, flank non-flankers in combat and weaken their combat capabilities" takes a little more while to parse.

Not that the inclusion or exclusion of flanking in Dominaria matters to me, but it's incomparable to flying, which is basically the gold standard of mechanics.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:08 am 
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LilyStorm wrote:
Nobody over 10 years old has ever struggled to understand flying.
It has nothing at all to do with understanding. It's entirely and only about the mental burden of remembering and tracking which pieces of cardboard do what things.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:51 am 
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astarael7 wrote:
LilyStorm wrote:
Nobody over 10 years old has ever struggled to understand flying.
It has nothing at all to do with understanding. It's entirely and only about the mental burden of remembering and tracking which pieces of cardboard do what things.


Magic is a complex game and its better for it. If they cant do quick calculations they shouldnt be playing it.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:20 pm 
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LilyStorm wrote:
astarael7 wrote:
LilyStorm wrote:
Nobody over 10 years old has ever struggled to understand flying.
It has nothing at all to do with understanding. It's entirely and only about the mental burden of remembering and tracking which pieces of cardboard do what things.

Magic is a complex game and its better for it. If they cant do quick calculations they shouldnt be playing it.
Also not the problem I'm talking about. This problem is, for example, if your opponent drops a 3/3 Flanker and then 5 turns and 15 plays pass, and then you play a 3/3 Haste Flanker, do you remember that you can't attack safely because your Flanking won't work?

And don't next come back at me with "well, they should just check". Magic is too complicated for everyone to remember everything that they should check every time they should check it. Infinite complication trumps finite brain space and attention capacity. Which is the real foundation of the problem.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:58 pm 
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You mean you dont reread the text of cards in play before you attack? Because pretty much everyone Ive ever played with does. I reread basically every card every turn.

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