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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:41 am 
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Eh, R&D might have this specific definition of what a "memory issue" is, but honestly, I think the "issue" part is pretty tiny in the case of Flanking. Every aura or equipment card that's attached to a creature more or less creates the same kind of issue. As I said, I could deal with it if we didn't get Flanking back in Dominaria, but I think the reasons for excluding it in general aren't very convincing. This set should certainly be the place to err on the side of complexity, not simplicity for simplicity's sake, and that's true for both flavour and mechanics. Besides, there's a Core Set coming out right after Dominaria, so that would be a good time to remember that expansion sets were once considered "expert level" sets to set them apart from the Core Sets.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:14 am 
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The "memory issue" is that research has shown that too many games went by where Flanking was ignored or forgotten during combat because of a host of reasons ranging from flanking not having a good reminder like a token or something on the card, to it not having a good art prompt, because, while most flankers do tend to ride horses, not all cards with a horse and rider have flanking, or any other reason, like its rules reminder text being slightly harder to parse at a glance.

Basically, while it isn't a problem once you a trained to recognize it, it reaches the threshold for a mechanic to be not really worth the hassle outside of a supplemental product targeted towards enfranchised players.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:48 am 
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Her's a fun thought experiment:

Bellow is a list of all of the things that sets set in Dominaria brought to the table. Consider this list and try to pick out three mechanics and three themes that you would want to see come back while still knowing that you need to spread your choices out over all eras of Dominaria's history and locals in order to make the most people happy. Know that if it is on this list, someone is probably a fan of it and wants to see it come back in some way or another to rub their historical nostalgia spot just right.

EDIT: I left out Planar Chaos and Future Sight because the Time Spiral block, as a whole, had fifty-gillion mechanics and themes and most of that was themed towards alternate reality present and unseen future anyway.

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magicpablo666 wrote:
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!"


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:31 am 
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Don't forget: Tempest/Stronghold/Exodus/Nemesis is part of Dominaria's creative DNA thanks to the Rathi overlay. Pretty much brings stuff we see again in Time Spiral anyway though.

Also, Prophecy is set on Dominaria, but its main themes were Rhystic (a subset of Punisher that nobody liked) and "Sac your lands for power" (which nobody liked doing) so it's probably right to largely forget it.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:36 am 
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Don't forget: Tempest/Stronghold/Exodus/Nemesis is part of Dominaria's creative DNA thanks to the Rathi overlay. Pretty much brings stuff we see again in Time Spiral anyway though.

Also, Prophecy is set on Dominaria, but its main themes were Rhystic (a subset of Punisher that nobody liked) and "Sac your lands for power" (which nobody liked doing) so it's probably right to largely forget it.
The only thing the Rath Cycle brought to the table that wasn't represented elsewhere was Shadow and maybe Spikes.

Nemesis brought us a few iconic creature types and spells like Spellshapers, Rebels, Mercenaries, and Seals (as in "Seal of"), as well a Fading (which was pretty much replaced with Vanishing).

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:40 am 
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Shadow and Buyback in Time Spiral came from there. It was also the first run for Slivers (Back in Legions and Time Spiral). Vanishing was indeed a solid replacement for Fading.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:44 am 
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I know, I was just marking when they appeared on Dominaria. (The Rath cycle was one of my favorite blocks.)

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You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!"


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:52 pm 
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Well, in that case...

Mechanics: Flashback, Morph (with triggers), Flanking, plus whatever new keywords would be introduced

All three of those were all over the place in Time Spiral, so there would already be a precedence for them being pan-Dominarian mechanics. Morph would have the added benefit that they could finally print those Morph markers from Tarkir with Dominaria-specific artwork, i.e. with a five-legged Morph-shell on it.

Themes: Kavu tribal would definitely be in, the other themes would probably depend on various things...

Many themes and keywords have become evergreen since their inception, so they'd be included automatically, and I think you can't really count specific cycles of cards as one slot. I'd throw several remakes of old card cycles into the set, it's not like each of them would be a theme or mechanic of its own. And I'd cheat a bit and also include Spellshapers, 'cause technically they don't have a keyword or ability word attached to them, just a creature type. Spellshapers are fun, nostalgic and would play well with Flashback.

Generally speaking, they could also do cool things with keywords that didn't originate from Dominaria, like Bloodthirst or Raid for the Keldons, Batallion for New Benalia, Convoke for a white or green faction etc. There's just too much design space for a single set. Time Spiral is my favourite set, and it crammed so much cool stuff into one set that it's now considered a "mistake" (like so many other things that I used to like about Magic), and it had the additional benefit of being followed by two more Dominaria-related sets that did almost the same. I'm a bit worried that Dominaria is going to feel like 'Time Spiral light', especially since it's also going to focus on the past. I hope I won't feel bad buying packs of it when I could just save the money to draft Time Spiral instead. Like, damn, one set is almost nothing, especially when you can't go crazy with the mechanics.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:05 pm 
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My bet is on heavy artifact subtheme, a lot of random lost creature types from the past like spikes and kavus and things. At least one cycle that shows an old tribe or location or thing and how its changed. Since Ixalan is tribal its unlikely there will be much of a tribal theme. Buyback, flashback and morph could all be flavored as discovery/archaeology and could work very well.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:11 pm 
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Would be funny if Dominaria is just the "Cycle Set" with almost every card being part of some cycle or another.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:55 pm 
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Willing to bet Explore comes back this set, and then some graveyard themes. Probably Slivers.

Flanking won't come back. They don't want things that make combat smaller, players forget that stuff more than they forget buffs. Bushido was their attempt to make flanking better.

I don't see more than one or two Kavu. A rare spike creature, at best. I don't expect too many throwbacks because this is the New Age of Magic!!! and they don't want to have everyone looking back at new stuff instead of focusing on the new.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:06 pm 
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Then why did they say it's going to be a history set? Really, if you don't design a Dominaria set to appeal to older players, then for whom are you doing it?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:13 pm 
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Yeah, I'm really expecting this to be very Time Spiral-esque in the history department, but with a more hopeful, less apocalyptic feel, as civilizations are on the rise, or have reached their renaissances.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:13 pm 
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Then why did they say it's going to be a history set? Really, if you don't design a Dominaria set to appeal to older players, then for whom are you doing it?


Because the EXPLORATION (!!!) theme is popular when they do it. Original Zendikar, Ixalan, etc. have been hits. When they said history, my first thought was archaeologists. People exploring long dead civilizations. Pretty much an early Brother's War feel, digging up old artifacts.

They will have tidbits and cookies to give us a taste of what Magic used to be, but the focus is going to be on the new. AFAIK the Kavu were a direct response to the Phyrexians and they were pretty vague on what happened to them after the invasion but from TPS it is safe to assume they are still around. Slivers obviously have stuck around from Rath/Riptide project. Maybe some Kavu evolved to hunt slivers? Would be cool.

But I don't expect it to be on the same callback level of TPS block.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:25 pm 
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Dear gods, please no more morph.
I'd much rather have shadow turn up again.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:26 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
Dear gods, please no more morph.
I'd much rather have shadow turn up again.
I'd be cool with that.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:14 pm 
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Eh, R&D might have this specific definition of what a "memory issue" is, but honestly, I think the "issue" part is pretty tiny in the case of Flanking. Every aura or equipment card that's attached to a creature more or less creates the same kind of issue.
Absolutely, to both of those things. But especially with complexity issues if the designers keep saying "ehhh, this one is tiny", before long you are past the point where you're overloading even very experienced players. They can't just let the tiny things slide, and this is less tiny than others.

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This set should certainly be the place to err on the side of complexity, not simplicity for simplicity's sake, and that's true for both flavour and mechanics. Besides, there's a Core Set coming out right after Dominaria, so that would be a good time to remember that expansion sets were once considered "expert level" sets to set them apart from the Core Sets.
That is also definitely not going to happen. Maro has been intermittently bemoaning for the last couple of years that all of Khans block through Kaladesh block (Amonkhet block?) ended up much more complex than they would have liked---either for various fundamental design reasons, or as a consequence of the two tectonic shifts to Magic's set structure. If Ixalan is any indication, they've finally started to wrangle that problem and I expect the fruits of that effort to be evident for a good while.

"Let's make this one more complex than usual," is also never, ever a goal of R&D outside of maybe the various Masters sets.

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