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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:12 am 
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Personally, I want them to all die so we can get the new Tibalt/Nahiri/Garruk/ObNix/Tamiyo gatewatch online

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:30 am 
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Barinellos wrote:
But oh sweet gods, they NEED to get absolutely wrecked next block. I mean, there's just no question this HAS to end in failure for this team. It's not just that they're going up against something so much further above them (thanks Eldrazi...) but also that they're jumping in half cocked and biting to win.


I said my piece on this in another thread

Long Story


Short: Looking forward to something pwning Gatewatch and soon, but there are merits to having the villain's lair be a push or a scenario in which they're just superfluous and taking the smackdown to the Gatewatch where it matters to them.

In fairness Szat, you just want Ravnica to be trashed.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:50 am 
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Barinellos wrote:
But oh sweet gods, they NEED to get absolutely wrecked next block. I mean, there's just no question this HAS to end in failure for this team. It's not just that they're going up against something so much further above them (thanks Eldrazi...) but also that they're jumping in half cocked and biting to win.
This.

The summary from the fatpack seems to line up with the artbook spoilers someone posted on MtG Sally a while ago. Liliana manipulating the idiot brigade to go to Amonkhet to help her kill Razeketh (sp?) is my guess as well. And dear gods, I have no words to express how glad I am that the Gatewatch DOESN'T meet up on Dominaria. Seriously, Liliana and Ajani going there would be fine (I like them and they've been there and are from there respectively), but I don't want any of the others to ever set foot on Dominaria. Ideally, Amonkhet might advance some story arcs that have been dragging on forever, like Liliana killing another demon and hopefully an explanation of Bolas's random machinations (especially releasing the Eldrazi). I mean, I don't really care about the new stuff, but it would be nice to see SOME of the threads that we've been following for years be resolved properly rather than just ignored/changed/handled poorly like so many others.

Szat's outline sounds pretty cool, and I've had a very similar idea for a while. I'd love to see the general populace on Ravnica learn about the Gatewatch and turn against them, for pretty much the same reasons (the Gatewatch brings devastation down on Ravnica through one of its enemies). I think Nahiri would be an alternative woth considering, too, mostly because she'd be hella dangerous on a plane like Ravnica. And it would make Structural Distortion look incredible. I'd capitalise on the Gatewatch vs. Gateless dynamics that's already in their names. It's just too good a coincidence (if it is one) to waste. Just imagine ruined city blocks covered in Who watches the Watchmen Gatewatch? graffiti. Maybe Ob Nixilis could join the party, too, because he got wind of Nahiri being there and seeks revenge, adding to the devastation while he dukes it out with her.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:44 am 
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Barinellos wrote:
In fairness Szat, you just want Ravnica to be trashed.

That makes it terribly convenient it's the Gatewatch's 'home base' I suppose :D

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:43 pm 
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Szat's outline sounds pretty cool, and I've had a very similar idea for a while. I'd love to see the general populace on Ravnica learn about the Gatewatch and turn against them, for pretty much the same reasons (the Gatewatch brings devastation down on Ravnica through one of its enemies). I think Nahiri would be an alternative woth considering, too, mostly because she'd be hella dangerous on a plane like Ravnica. And it would make Structural Distortion look incredible. I'd capitalise on the Gatewatch vs. Gateless dynamics that's already in their names. It's just too good a coincidence (if it is one) to waste. Just imagine ruined city blocks covered in Who watches the Watchmen Gatewatch? graffiti. Maybe Ob Nixilis could join the party, too, because he got wind of Nahiri being there and seeks revenge, adding to the devastation while he dukes it out with her.

Nahiri doesn't make sense. Her grudge was against Sorin, and she was utterly unaware of Jace. By the time the watch showed up, Nahiri had left because her goal wasn't necessarily to destroy Innistrad, it was to dump Emrakul on it and make Sorin watch. The fact it's stuck in the moon and likely going to be having some effect is still an appropriate outcome from her vantage.

Now Ob on the other hand, HE really wants their blood.

As to Razaketh, I'm thinking they've probably overstretched unless the demon is literally involved with Bolas's plans. If it turns out Razaketh is the big bad and the Watch has to accept they can't possibly touch the dragon, I might actually be okay with that because it's still a hard lesson that grinds the team under heel.

But if they split focus between Bolas and Razaketh, that's probably going to be too many balls in the air for one team to deal with. When we were split between Sorin and Jace, those plots were interlinked but unconnected. If Liliana goes with the watch then tries to drag them in while they also deal with Bolas... I've less faith that'll come out okay.

Lastly, in today's UR Liliana said Razaketh was stronger than either of the ones she's killed, but when she was making the pacts, Kothophed was apparently the big kicker since he was last in her contracts, so which one was it?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:54 pm 
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It's been a while since her contracts. Demons can fluctuate in power over time. Also the power he granted her may not have been as mind blowing as Kothophed, but he may still be stronger.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:20 am 
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Ghmmmm...

We've been confirmed that Emrakul is sentient and quite aware of events. I wonder how she feels about Nahiri ?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:19 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
Lastly, in today's UR Liliana said Razaketh was stronger than either of the ones she's killed, but when she was making the pacts, Kothophed was apparently the big kicker since he was last in her contracts, so which one was it?
He may not have been last because he was the most powerful. He may have been last because he was granting Liliana the thing she desired the most: eternal life and youth. The others were referenced as only granting her boosts to her necromantic prowess and restoring some of the power she lost in the Mending.

In fact, if Kothophed was the weakest that would explain very well why he was so interested in acquiring the Chain Veil.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:21 am 
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Barinellos wrote:
Szat's outline sounds pretty cool, and I've had a very similar idea for a while. I'd love to see the general populace on Ravnica learn about the Gatewatch and turn against them, for pretty much the same reasons (the Gatewatch brings devastation down on Ravnica through one of its enemies). I think Nahiri would be an alternative woth considering, too, mostly because she'd be hella dangerous on a plane like Ravnica. And it would make Structural Distortion look incredible. I'd capitalise on the Gatewatch vs. Gateless dynamics that's already in their names. It's just too good a coincidence (if it is one) to waste. Just imagine ruined city blocks covered in Who watches the Watchmen Gatewatch? graffiti. Maybe Ob Nixilis could join the party, too, because he got wind of Nahiri being there and seeks revenge, adding to the devastation while he dukes it out with her.

Nahiri doesn't make sense. Her grudge was against Sorin, and she was utterly unaware of Jace. By the time the watch showed up, Nahiri had left because her goal wasn't necessarily to destroy Innistrad, it was to dump Emrakul on it and make Sorin watch. The fact it's stuck in the moon and likely going to be having some effect is still an appropriate outcome from her vantage.

Now Ob on the other hand, HE really wants their blood.
Nahiri attacking the Gatewatch on Ravnica makes no sense as it is atm, but depending on what else happens in the near future, you could probably justify that scenario at some point. Or maybe you could approach it the other way around and have Ob Nixilis attack the Gatewatch on Ravnica and have Nahiri show up because of him. I'd be fine with pretty much any villain coming after the Gatewatch on their home turf, wrecking everything and having people turn against them, I just think Nahiri being on Ravnica would have a special appeal. Lithomancer + city plane = insanity.

Barinellos wrote:
As to Razaketh, I'm thinking they've probably overstretched unless the demon is literally involved with Bolas's plans. If it turns out Razaketh is the big bad and the Watch has to accept they can't possibly touch the dragon, I might actually be okay with that because it's still a hard lesson that grinds the team under heel.

But if they split focus between Bolas and Razaketh, that's probably going to be too many balls in the air for one team to deal with. When we were split between Sorin and Jace, those plots were interlinked but unconnected. If Liliana goes with the watch then tries to drag them in while they also deal with Bolas... I've less faith that'll come out okay.
Judging from the artbook blurb, Bolas isn't going to show up on Amonkhet before the sun is between those big horns, and the spoiled package for Hour of Devastation has Bolas on it, so I don't expect him to be in the first set. Which would leave them enough time to focus on Razaketh. I think the demon is probably going to be a part of Bolas's plans for Amonkhet or otherwise involved in the hierarchy there. Maybe he oversees the Trials of the Worthy, or maybe fighting Razaketh is part of those trials. Or maybe he's just guarding the underworld, if Amonkhet has such a thing. According to the Egyptian Book of the Dead, fighting or getting past creatures that we would call 'demons' was part of the soul's journey to the underworld, so a big demon being involved somehow wouldn't be out of place.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:46 am 
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Nahiri might be interested in the Gatewatch if someone clued her in on Nissa's part in the "wake up the Eldrazi Titans" events. I mean, she may just blame Sorin more for locking her up so that she wouldn't be around to have a come to Jesus moment with a bratty young elf, but knowing that Jace and Chandra jimmied the lock and Nissa kicked down the door might tip her need to get some more revenge out of her system.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:30 pm 
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AzureShade wrote:
Nahiri might be interested in the Gatewatch if someone clued her in on Nissa's part in the "wake up the Eldrazi Titans" events. I mean, she may just blame Sorin more for locking her up so that she wouldn't be around to have a come to Jesus moment with a bratty young elf, but knowing that Jace and Chandra jimmied the lock and Nissa kicked down the door might tip her need to get some more revenge out of her system.

That's predicated on her never going back to Zendikar to find out they killed two titans, but considering the only ones who know what they did are on Zendikar...

The thing about this all is Nahiri isn't a clear cut villain in most circumstances.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:33 pm 
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Honestly, I'm more on the side of Nahiri being a justified victim relative to most plansewalker morality.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:57 pm 
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Pretty much. She might have been an antagonist, but she's no more a villain than Dovin is.
It's a distinction that many seem to just want to ignore.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:26 pm 
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I don't totally buy that -- there's a difference between Dovin and Nahiri, and that's the Kaladeshi Bodycount Dovin worked to not have or to minimize, versus the Innistradi body count Nahiri worked to generate. We don't have population numbers for Innistrad, but the population of England between 1250 and 1348 was in the 4.x million range, which seems a plausable comparison, since England is pretty small. On that last year, it was 4.8 million. That doesn't feel like a bad guess for Innistrad.

In 1351 the population of England was 2.6 Million. Those with a decent knowledge of European history can probably guess why. And frankly, based on the kind of devastation we were shown in EMN, I'd guess a similar drop there. Those warped (and probably turned to goo puddles when Emrakul decided to take a moon nap) or killed have numbers that rival the safe -- that's what the cards tell me. Except it wouldn't be due to poor sanitation, crap medicine, and a disease that thrived in that, it would be due to Emrakul's Warping effects and their concequences. It would be laid directly at the feet of Nahiri. And it's not a mistake or a tragic accident, not an unintended consequence or unfortunate bit of fallout. It was her goal, or even short of her goal. So she was driven by vengeance -- so what? She was fine rockinizing Sorin. Wrecking his house and making his (estranged) family Creature - Walls? That's a little dark and destructive, but ok you're an immortal being and taking revenge for a plane that, as destroyed as you thought or not, got pretty wrecked. But to repay 2.2 million deaths in kind, full on "Do onto others as others have done on to you" vendetta bullcrap? That's very :w:, but it's also straight up villainous.

Which isn't to say that folks can't change on that scale, but IMO she's got "Mass Murder, attempted Genocide" on her rap sheet, which is pretty hard to balance out. Dovin, at worst, has some Lawful Stupid tendencies.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:01 pm 
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But to repay 2.2 million deaths in kind, full on "Do onto others as others have done on to you" vendetta bullcrap? That's very :w:, but it's also straight up villainous.

Which isn't to say that folks can't change on that scale, but IMO she's got "Mass Murder, attempted Genocide" on her rap sheet, which is pretty hard to balance out. Dovin, at worst, has some Lawful Stupid tendencies.
Yes, but you have to remember that, at least for Old 'Walkers like Nahiri, things function on a different morality level than we would understand. Plane-bound deaths account for nothing much of time. As far as Nahiri was concerned, her old friend betrayed her, locked her up, and caused her world to suffer. In return, she locked him up and caused his world to suffer in kind. The trivial concerns of the millions of people that were surly going to die were probably just another small factor in the "will this hurt Sorin" math. And honestly, to Sorin, having millions of people die was less of a pained feeling and more of an annoyance because those people were supposed to be food for his vampires. Even his vampires dying was less of a sad feeling than Nahiri wrecking his ancestral home (because it was his), which in turn was less sad than being forced to unmake Avacyn....breaking his own things with his own hands. That's how she got to him, not the millions of deaths the eldrazi would cause. Planeswalkers, at least old ones, didn't really care about people beyond a sense of "ownership." As a comparison, Sorin was responsible for Nahiri's garden being ruined so she smashed his ant farm. That's probably how deep either thought about the people involved on Zendikar or Innistrad.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:07 pm 
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AzureShade wrote:
But to repay 2.2 million deaths in kind, full on "Do onto others as others have done on to you" vendetta bullcrap? That's very :w:, but it's also straight up villainous.

Which isn't to say that folks can't change on that scale, but IMO she's got "Mass Murder, attempted Genocide" on her rap sheet, which is pretty hard to balance out. Dovin, at worst, has some Lawful Stupid tendencies.
Yes, but you have to remember that, at least for Old 'Walkers like Nahiri, things function on a different morality level than we would understand. Plane-bound deaths account for nothing much of time. As far as Nahiri was concerned, her old friend betrayed her, locked her up, and caused her world to suffer. In return, she locked him up and caused his world to suffer in kind. The trivial concerns of the millions of people that were surly going to die were probably just another small factor in the "will this hurt Sorin" math. And honestly, to Sorin, having millions of people die was less of a pained feeling and more of an annoyance because those people were supposed to be food for his vampires. Even his vampires dying was less of a sad feeling than Nahiri wrecking his ancestral home (because it was his), which in turn was less sad than being forced to unmake Avacyn....breaking his own things with his own hands. That's how she got to him, not the millions of deaths the eldrazi would cause. Planeswalkers, at least old ones, didn't really care about people beyond a sense of "ownership." As a comparison, Sorin was responsible for Nahiri's garden being ruined so she smashed his ant farm. That's probably how deep either thought about the people involved on Zendikar or Innistrad.

Sure, but you can't really judge a mass murder based on the mass murderer's twisted sense of morality. It's not like you can bring Joseph Stalin up for trial and say "I know this guy killed as many as 50 million people, but let's hear his side of it." Nahiri went well out of her way to kill millions of people. To me, at least, it doesn't matter why she did it, nor does it matter that those lives didn't matter to her or didn't register to her or whatever. She still did it. And it wasn't done for some kind of moral dilemma puzzle either, like "this many die so that some may live" kind of thing. Nahiri is a sociopath. Dovin's just kind of a jerk (at least in comparison).


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:19 pm 
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Oh yeah, Dovin is not on my villain list so much as he's on the "on the wrong side" list. (And even that's arguable because his side isn't really that bad/wrong outside of a few corrupt jerks and Tezzeret.)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:37 pm 
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I mean, I'm not questioning if her actions were monstrous and if she's insane. She's an old walker, that's an automatic given, I'm debating on her pattern of behavior. Her actions on Innistrad were premeditated and horrendous... But she's not a villain at heart. Villains are the likes of Nixilis, who have a pattern of behavior. Nahiri was insane with grief. She's accomplished the thing she set out to do. (more or less)

I honestly can't see her doing anything else as awful from this point on.
Edit: okay, admittedly Ugin probably has some hurt on the horizon, but there again, neither Ugin nor Sorin are shining heroes. They're as guilty as Nahiri of basically anything.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:55 pm 
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I like Nahiri the way she is.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:18 pm 
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Nahiri is completely insane, and her motivations don't make any sense to anyone who isn't. Her beef with Sorin basically starts with "I'm mad that you went somewhere without cell signal and missed my text, so it's time for violence." So why does she start a fight with him? It's not because she needs to use force to coerce him into protecting her plane, she admits herself that "She did not, in fact, need Sorin's help." Later on in the fight, it becomes about her being afraid that he'll seek retaliation for her aggression if she doesn't "earn his respect" by beating him. So it's like if I went out and punched some guy in the face for no reason, and then thought "you know, he might retaliate against me if I don't earn his respect by beating him within an inch of his life, and also killing his daughter", all while Sorin is trying to tell her as clearly as possible that all he wants is for her to go away and leave him alone. She claims she wants to be equals, but she seems unsatisfied with any outcome that doesn't leave her with unconditional domination of Sorin by threat of lethal force.

So I don't think it's fair to say "well she just has oldwalker morality where nonwalkers don't matter", her relationships to other planeswalkers are just as insane.

As for the whole "she's a good person, but just insane with grief" argument, I don't think that really counts. If someone in real life shot up a school, you wouldn't say "they're not a villain, they're just insane with grief." You wouldn't feel comfortable with that person just walking into class the next day because they had "accomplished what they set out to do." Willingness to murder large numbers of people over perceived slights isn't just "that thing that they did once", it's a defining character trait.

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