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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:11 pm 
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AzureShade wrote:
It's time for pirates

:)
AzureShade wrote:
....and monkeys

:D
AzureShade wrote:
....and monkey pirates!

:dance:
AzureShade wrote:
(Also Jace is there!)

:face:


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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:16 pm 
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AzureShade wrote:
(Also Jace is there!)

:face:
Look, he was literally set dressing for most of the story.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:25 pm 
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AzureShade wrote:
AzureShade wrote:
(Also Jace is there!)

:face:
Look, he was literally set dressing for most of the story.

I know. But that string of reactions amuses me, and is pretty much what I did when I read your intro. (Technically, I didn't facepalm so much as frown, but I like facepalm smilie better...)


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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:55 pm 
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AzureShade wrote:
It strains credibility to me that Baral and his men could do the things that happened in Origins (track down Chandra and her family, murder her dad, set fire to everything, parade Chandra for execution in front of an entire arena full of people, and then have her vanish or die in a huge flaming spectacle and then...and then capture Pia and keep her in a prison for five years), but for some reason all Dovan knows about this time was that Baral wrote some report that said all three Nalaars died in a fire Chandra started? And he only finds out about it when Baral villain monologues to Chandra within earshot and then arrests him for it? Like....how does that level of dereliction of duty happen from Dovan? how are records so **** and witness testimony so scarce that he just reads Baral's report while studying up on Chandra and Pia and goes...."Yep, sounds right, but somehow they both lived...how odd."

I wanted to come back to this actually.
1) Dovin is part of a new administration, so his position doesn't go that far back and it's pretty obvious the old administration was basically corrupt FAR in excess of whatever slights the whiny rebels have concerning this one (outside of Tezzeret's coup)
2) As difficult as it is to remember given how messy and dumb a lot of this story has been, but the Inventor's Fair was going on followed pretty directly into martial law. And Baan has been neck deep in both those things. He was the chief foreman for the fair, so cut the guy some slack, he's had a TON of stuff on his six-fingered hands. The fact he dug up those reports at all is the surprising part.

People keep insisting he's a villain, but he really isn't. He's just doing his job. The people at the top are the villains, but he's doing his best to mitigate damage to the city and loss of life. Out of genuine concern for innocents. It wasn't so long ago that was Gideon in that position, or are we forgetting he was sent to arrest Chandra?

On the shipping, I'm staying quiet other than to say Nissa irks me more each time she's brought up.


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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:05 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
AzureShade wrote:
It strains credibility to me that Baral and his men could do the things that happened in Origins (track down Chandra and her family, murder her dad, set fire to everything, parade Chandra for execution in front of an entire arena full of people, and then have her vanish or die in a huge flaming spectacle and then...and then capture Pia and keep her in a prison for five years), but for some reason all Dovan knows about this time was that Baral wrote some report that said all three Nalaars died in a fire Chandra started? And he only finds out about it when Baral villain monologues to Chandra within earshot and then arrests him for it? Like....how does that level of dereliction of duty happen from Dovan? how are records so **** and witness testimony so scarce that he just reads Baral's report while studying up on Chandra and Pia and goes...."Yep, sounds right, but somehow they both lived...how odd."

I wanted to come back to this actually.
1) Dovin is part of a new administration, so his position doesn't go that far back and it's pretty obvious the old administration was basically corrupt FAR in excess of whatever slights the whiny rebels have concerning this one (outside of Tezzeret's coup)
2) As difficult as it is to remember given how messy and dumb a lot of this story has been, but the Inventor's Fair was going on followed pretty directly into martial law. And Baan has been neck deep in both those things. He was the chief foreman for the fair, so cut the guy some slack, he's had a TON of stuff on his six-fingered hands. The fact he dug up those reports at all is the surprising part.

People keep insisting he's a villain, but he really isn't. He's just doing his job. The people at the top are the villains, but he's doing his best to mitigate damage to the city and loss of life. Out of genuine concern for innocents.
I completely agree with all of this. Dovin Baan has become my favorite secondary character. It helps that I'm a huge sucker for the trope of the well-meaning clever bureaucrat tossing pages of regulation at terrible people.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:41 am 
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Random, but on Kaladesh, wth is a prince to Kari? I was just starting to think a short story about a Kaladeshi Prince of Persia expy would be cool to write, perhaps with "Prince" as a renegade codename (pffff Shadowblayde) but then got to thinking, there's not really royalty on Kaldesh, just like I've noticed no clerics... as I've been working on my own "Lorwyn 5" set of OCs, with a planeswalker cleric as the mono-white walker, perhaps becoming familiar with Kaladesh's angels, or even preaching up entities like Avacyn or Emeria or Purphoros on Kaladesh to anyone who would listen. Back to my point, why does Kari refer to her monkey (forgot name) as "my prince"? Were there kingdoms in Kaladesh's past?

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:25 am 
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We can't really be sure. For one, the artbook isn't out yet.
Also, if some cleric started trying to preach to me, especially about extra planar gods, I'd leave. If they did it in public, there's a chance they could be arrested for disturbing the peace.

To clerics and religion in general, the closest thing we've seen is the great conduit, which is a very physical thing since elves perceive it like the force. But one thing that I recognize in this is a movement that started in the mid 60's in India which I've heard called the New Indian movement that specifically focused on shedding certain traditions, particularly religious ones, and focusing on the embracing and development of science. Kaladesh definitely seems to be taking cues from that, understandably since they specifically wanted to avoid offending anyone that practices the world's oldest religion.


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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:12 am 
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Barinellos wrote:
We can't really be sure. For one, the artbook isn't out yet.
Also, if some cleric started trying to preach to me, especially about extra planar gods, I'd leave. If they did it in public, there's a chance they could be arrested for disturbing the peace.

To clerics and religion in general, the closest thing we've seen is the great conduit, which is a very physical thing since elves perceive it like the force. But one thing that I recognize in this is a movement that started in the mid 60's in India which I've heard called the New Indian movement that specifically focused on shedding certain traditions, particularly religious ones, and focusing on the embracing and development of science. Kaladesh definitely seems to be taking cues from that, understandably since they specifically wanted to avoid offending anyone that practices the world's oldest religion.
lol Maybe they only deal out teachings in confidence. Anyway though, the artbook is out. It came out on the 7th, tho my delivery was confirmed via Amazon as a notification, however, either a mistake was made by posting that "delivered" notification, a mistake was made and the artbook was delivered to someone else at my apartment, it was "delivered" generally to my apartment and it has yet to end up where I can access it yet, OR it was stolen shortly after arriving at my doorstep.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:58 am 
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Since Kaladesh is basically just Magic-India, I would assume that there were stories and legends of something that constituted a "royal" caste before the time of the Consulate. Kari seems like the kind of girl who would have read stories of princes going on dashing adventures.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:57 am 
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That reminds me of my insistence on there being or having been an emperor on Kamigawa. You know, because the people there called Tezzeret 'the metal armed emperor', so the concept of an emperor clearly exists on Kamigawa. Which also means there probably are/were Daimyos other than Konda.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:22 pm 
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Konda was essentially Tokugawa. He just never took the emperor title.


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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:27 pm 
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Random, but on Kaladesh, wth is a prince to Kari? I was just starting to think a short story about a Kaladeshi Prince of Persia expy would be cool to write, perhaps with "Prince" as a renegade codename (pffff Shadowblayde) but then got to thinking, there's not really royalty on Kaldesh, just like I've noticed no clerics... as I've been working on my own "Lorwyn 5" set of OCs, with a planeswalker cleric as the mono-white walker, perhaps becoming familiar with Kaladesh's angels, or even preaching up entities like Avacyn or Emeria or Purphoros on Kaladesh to anyone who would listen. Back to my point, why does Kari refer to her monkey (forgot name) as "my prince"? Were there kingdoms in Kaladesh's past?
According to the artbook, the government of Kaladesh that proceeded the Consulate was many competing city-states ruled by princes. Their clashes lead to a massive continent-spanning war called the War of the Eleven; the peace treaty which ended that war established Ghirapur as a new city in the disputed territory and the eleven princes who signed became the first eleven consuls. So that's where princes come from in Kaladesh.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:41 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
AzureShade wrote:
It strains credibility to me that Baral and his men could do the things that happened in Origins (track down Chandra and her family, murder her dad, set fire to everything, parade Chandra for execution in front of an entire arena full of people, and then have her vanish or die in a huge flaming spectacle and then...and then capture Pia and keep her in a prison for five years), but for some reason all Dovan knows about this time was that Baral wrote some report that said all three Nalaars died in a fire Chandra started? And he only finds out about it when Baral villain monologues to Chandra within earshot and then arrests him for it? Like....how does that level of dereliction of duty happen from Dovan? how are records so **** and witness testimony so scarce that he just reads Baral's report while studying up on Chandra and Pia and goes...."Yep, sounds right, but somehow they both lived...how odd."

I wanted to come back to this actually.
1) Dovin is part of a new administration, so his position doesn't go that far back and it's pretty obvious the old administration was basically corrupt FAR in excess of whatever slights the whiny rebels have concerning this one (outside of Tezzeret's coup)
2) As difficult as it is to remember given how messy and dumb a lot of this story has been, but the Inventor's Fair was going on followed pretty directly into martial law. And Baan has been neck deep in both those things. He was the chief foreman for the fair, so cut the guy some slack, he's had a TON of stuff on his six-fingered hands. The fact he dug up those reports at all is the surprising part.
Right, but all of that stuff happened when Chandra was a tween....so about a decade ago as best. That's like somehow blanking out on an entire recent presidential cycle. Assuming that Dovan is older than Chandra, he was probably working in-government at the time Baral was gallivanting around and holding giant execution spectacles in the central capitol city's most popular coliseum. Like...hundreds of people attended Chandra's execution and subsequent planeswalker ignition. That's not something you just miss or is hard to dig up information about after the fact. People are going to remember that one time they went to see a pyromancer executed in the public square and she went up in a column of fire.

What I'm trying to say is that, sure, Dovan is a busy guy, but him being surprised about this and being unable to put two and two together for so long is something of a character malpractice.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:04 pm 
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AzureShade wrote:
Right, but all of that stuff happened when Chandra was a tween....so about a decade ago as best. That's like somehow blanking out on an entire recent presidential cycle. Assuming that Dovan is older than Chandra, he was probably working in-government at the time Baral was gallivanting around and holding giant execution spectacles in the central capitol city's most popular coliseum. Like...hundreds of people attended Chandra's execution and subsequent planeswalker ignition. That's not something you just miss or is hard to dig up information about after the fact. People are going to remember that one time they went to see a pyromancer executed in the public square and she went up in a column of fire.

What I'm trying to say is that, sure, Dovan is a busy guy, but him being surprised about this and being unable to put two and two together for so long is something of a character malpractice.

It was specifically 12 years ago.
And I think you're underestimating the population size of Ghirapur. Something like a thousand people could have been at that execution, but with a population center likely in the hundreds of thousands, that's a needle in a haystack. Add in the fact that we're looking at information storage tantamount to the turn of LAST century and I don't think you appreciate how hard that task you want to talk about is. Add in that we don't have a clue how common an occurrence an execution might have been under the old regime....

We also can't be certain when Baan started working for the government other than he seems to be part of the new administration, not the old one, so it's presumptuous to say he must have been working at the time Baral did all this.

Aside from all that, I think, and this is just personal feelings, he suspected Baral but had little proof to act on, and Baan is definitely about full procedure so he wouldn't act before he had solid evidence.


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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:27 am 
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Another Message from the Consulate:

Quote:
This is a message from Sekar Rabi of the Department of Security and Enforcement.

Sources close to the renegade movement have confirmed that notorious sky pirate Karpani Zevanwat (known by the alias Kari Zev) and her ship, the Dragon’s Smile, have been involved in ongoing attacks on our city. Zev, along with her crew and a monkey that goes by the name of Ragavan, is wanted for numerous raids on Consulate skyships and theft of Consulate cargo. Zev has engaged in multiple aerial confrontations with aether collecting vessels and Consulate sky surveillance ships. Next to leviathans and dragons, Kari Zev is the greatest threat to the brave Consulate pilots who patrol our skies.

When contacted for comment, Zevanwat’s parents, both Consulate functionaries, expressed their desperation for their daughter to land her ship and cease her raids. It’s heartbreaking to see a family torn apart by the renegade mentality. Zevanwat is just one of many examples of upstanding citizens who were seduced by the lies of the renegades. Don’t allow this to happen to your loved ones. Remind your children of the good the Consulate does. Encourage your families to stay safe and stand with their city.

We understand that recent protective measures the Consulate has been forced to take may have made it difficult for some citizens to access aether, create new inventions, or continue their research. Many brilliant minds within the Consulate have had to postpone their own research as well. We would not ask you to do something we were not willing to do ourselves. We must all make sacrifices for the good of our city and our way of life. Once Ghirapur is safe from the renegade threat—and it will be very soon—all will be restored. Thank you for your patience and continued cooperation.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:35 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
Aside from all that, I think, and this is just personal feelings, he suspected Baral but had little proof to act on, and Baan is definitely about full procedure so he wouldn't act before he had solid evidence.


The way he acted seems to imply this.

Baral just plain isn't subtle even when he tries to erase history.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:41 am 
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Or maybe making Nissa gay is Wizards' brilliant strategy to shut down criticism because they can call people homophobes for disliking her :roll:

Gods I kind of hate coming back to this, but I dislike Nissa enough that I can't not.
I was considering how bothered I am that they mentioned that Chandra is no longer physically attracted to Gideon and how they're pushing Nissa and it just bugs me so much how MUCH they changed her.

The meek shrinking violet flower child introvert she became is as far from who she was in almost every conceivable way and potentially making her a homosexual is just every sort of irritating I can imagine. It does feel like a cheap shield they could use to divert criticisms.

Chandra wouldn't bother me. (okay, mostly. I really like GideonxChandra) Nissa? yeah, I'm vexed.


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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:36 am 
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I'm with you there. I was only partly joking: As soon as they make characters in the Gatewatch gay, those characters aren't going anywhere, and that's an actual fear that I have. You don't just make two of your main characters gay to have them die shortly after. It makes for awkward PR.

Barinellos wrote:
I was considering how bothered I am that they mentioned that Chandra is no longer physically attracted to Gideon
They mentioned what now? Brilliant, so that's another one of the old threads that just peters out post-Origins instead of paying off. But it's not like I still care, it was way too late to redeem both Chandra and Gideon as well as their relationship anyway. I don't have any preferences anymore for what I want any of those characters to be or not be. The only thing I want them to 'be' is DEAD. Making them gay would only bother me because it would get in the way of that. I casually picked up TPF recently and browsed through a few pages for a couple of minutes, and it just made me genuinely sad. Like, reading those nice, well crafted moments between Chandra and Gideon, just to remember what they've turned that into a moment later. In fact, they just destroyed Chandra's character in so many subtle (and unsubtle) ways because they cherry picked the stuff they wanted to be retconned when you really can't take away single bits from TPF. All those threads were narratively connected somehow. As far as I'm concerned, all of the original four members of the Gatewatch are already dead. What's shambling through Wednesday's Prose Commercial these days are just their disfigured walking corpses, and I avoid looking at them.

That said, I think it would actually feel more wrong to me to have Nissa fall in love with a human, no matter if that human is male or female.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:53 am 
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I don't recall anyone from Wizards saying there was no physical attraction going on with Chandra and Gideon. In the last several URs involving the pair, Chandra spends a noticeable amount of time detailing all the parts of Gideon she enjoys.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:23 pm 
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AzureShade wrote:
I don't recall anyone from Wizards saying there was no physical attraction going on with Chandra and Gideon. In the last several URs involving the pair, Chandra spends a noticeable amount of time detailing all the parts of Gideon she enjoys.

And mentions that they no longer make her "tingle in her favorite places"
She's still emotionally invested, but they seem to also go out of their way to say the attraction isn't there.


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