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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:58 pm 
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razorborne wrote:

honestly, I don't care that much about this, but given that a) Haste is an ability that appears at reasonable volumes in every set, b) MaRo's own definition of secondary abilities say that if the effect is something they do a lot of, it should appear in its secondary color in most sets, and c) black has an average of 1/3rd of a haste card per set in Standard, and 1/6th of a sub-rare haste card, MaRo's insistence that black deserves secondary status seems to imply that he is unfamiliar with his own product.

:duel:
Okay, I hammered the point about volumes a little hard, but it's still about much more than plain card counts: it's about role-filling and the when's and how's of the usage. Green's haste has to meet certain conditions. Black's haste does not have any conditions on it.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:46 pm 
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astarael7 wrote:
razorborne wrote:

honestly, I don't care that much about this, but given that a) Haste is an ability that appears at reasonable volumes in every set, b) MaRo's own definition of secondary abilities say that if the effect is something they do a lot of, it should appear in its secondary color in most sets, and c) black has an average of 1/3rd of a haste card per set in Standard, and 1/6th of a sub-rare haste card, MaRo's insistence that black deserves secondary status seems to imply that he is unfamiliar with his own product.

:duel:
Okay, I hammered the point about volumes a little hard, but it's still about much more than plain card counts: it's about role-filling and the when's and how's of the usage. Green's haste has to meet certain conditions. Black's haste does not have any conditions on it.

serious question, not meant as like a gotcha thing: what conditions exist on green's haste? neither gaea's revenge nor crocodile of the crossing are parts of cycles, nor do they absolutely need haste in order to function. (that second condition is why I'm not contesting the exclusion of things like waker of the wilds, which has a very conditioned use of haste but doesn't really count.) heck, Crocodile could easily have just been a red card: nothing about it mechanically precludes that, so it can't have just been put there because it had to be green. it's true that black's single sub-rare haste creature is a lower rarity than green's single sub-rare haste creature, but beyond that there's no clear difference that I can see. sure, green's are both big, chunky face-smashers, but that's hardly a condition considering that like 75% of green creatures are, and besides, it's easy to extrapolate a lot of arbitrary stuff from just two data points. I mean, judging by current standard cards, black is only allowed to get haste on 2-powered creatures that cost exactly and have an activated ability that grants itself a keyword.

:duel:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:45 pm 
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The condition is that it's being pushed for constructed. The crocodile's other mechanic was a deck they were trying to invent where you had sacrificial lambs that took the -1/-1 counters so your drawback creatures could be full sized themselves, but you wanted to make sure it was worth it.

There is no substitute for haste. The "surprise factor" of someone not keeping blockers for it is not really a big issue in constructed, but getting the damage one turn sooner could be worth more than any amount of extra power if the opponent is on low health, and more importantly it works well against someone using lots of sorcery speed removal. Without haste, if they have enough card advantage they can just kill everything you put out. Gaea's Revenge can dodge point removal, but wraths tend to be sorcery speed; it's not really forcing you to play green's game if you don't have to meet it in combat.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:41 am 
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There's been a lot of online discussion about the question where you should put Serra Angel in BG so you don't have overlap between the colors. I think the question was ok because it told you what it wanted you to do, but it would still be weird to have those abilities in those colors. I guess 2 color gold creatures are hard to design. You already have the rule that you can't use tertiary abilities, but it's probably an unwritten rule that you would rarely have only secondary abilities and no primaries.

I think this is because with mono color cards, they have to be made in every set (except alara reborn). You can't just put deathtouch and menace on every black card, and not all cards are top down and will tell you what they need from flavour alone, so you start sprinkling in flying and lifelink and haste for some variety. But with 2 color cards you don't make as many of them, and there are a lot of combinations you could choose (e.g. choose one primary ability from black and a primary or secondary from green, dozens of choices even if you also have the rule that you can't have an ability that's in both colors).

Or think of it this way: Say you had a mono green deck and you decided to add black to it. You're probably not adding black because you want flying. If you want flying you'd add blue or white. If you add black you want something other than flying. Same thing if you start from mono black, you're not adding green for vigilance.

I made these cards,


:u::b:
Creature
Hexproof, haste
2/2


:1::b::r:
Creature
Reach, lifelink
2/3


Blue is secondary in hexproof, black is secondary in haste and lifelink, red is secondary in reach. Unlike the BG serra angel, neither of these could be a monocolored card unless you use tertiary abilities. But you still don't know why the 1st one isn't partly R and/or G and why the 2nd one isn't partly G and/or W. Also, these don't fit the feel of the color combination. UB is not usually about non evasive aggro creatures and BR is not usually this defensive. But that could vary depending on the set.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:08 pm 
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Flopfoot wrote:
The condition is that it's being pushed for constructed. The crocodile's other mechanic was a deck they were trying to invent where you had sacrificial lambs that took the -1/-1 counters so your drawback creatures could be full sized themselves, but you wanted to make sure it was worth it.

There is no substitute for haste. The "surprise factor" of someone not keeping blockers for it is not really a big issue in constructed, but getting the damage one turn sooner could be worth more than any amount of extra power if the opponent is on low health, and more importantly it works well against someone using lots of sorcery speed removal. Without haste, if they have enough card advantage they can just kill everything you put out. Gaea's Revenge can dodge point removal, but wraths tend to be sorcery speed; it's not really forcing you to play green's game if you don't have to meet it in combat.

but MaRo's definitions specify that being pushed for constructed is a condition of being primary. arguing that it's tertiary because it only gets the effect when the card is strong seems to fly completely in the face of the ranking system, which implies (although, admittedly, doesn't outright state) that tertiary colors are the least likely to get pushed cards with the mechanic.

:duel:

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:10 pm 
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Flopfoot wrote:
There's been a lot of online discussion about the question where you should put Serra Angel in BG so you don't have overlap between the colors. I think the question was ok because it told you what it wanted you to do, but it would still be weird to have those abilities in those colors. I guess 2 color gold creatures are hard to design. You already have the rule that you can't use tertiary abilities, but it's probably an unwritten rule that you would rarely have only secondary abilities and no primaries.

I think this is because with mono color cards, they have to be made in every set (except alara reborn). You can't just put deathtouch and menace on every black card, and not all cards are top down and will tell you what they need from flavour alone, so you start sprinkling in flying and lifelink and haste for some variety. But with 2 color cards you don't make as many of them, and there are a lot of combinations you could choose (e.g. choose one primary ability from black and a primary or secondary from green, dozens of choices even if you also have the rule that you can't have an ability that's in both colors).

Or think of it this way: Say you had a mono green deck and you decided to add black to it. You're probably not adding black because you want flying. If you want flying you'd add blue or white. If you add black you want something other than flying. Same thing if you start from mono black, you're not adding green for vigilance.

I made these cards,


:u::b:
Creature
Hexproof, haste
2/2


:1::b::r:
Creature
Reach, lifelink
2/3


Blue is secondary in hexproof, black is secondary in haste and lifelink, red is secondary in reach. Unlike the BG serra angel, neither of these could be a monocolored card unless you use tertiary abilities. But you still don't know why the 1st one isn't partly R and/or G and why the 2nd one isn't partly G and/or W. Also, these don't fit the feel of the color combination. UB is not usually about non evasive aggro creatures and BR is not usually this defensive. But that could vary depending on the set.

yeah, I agree. the question's fair because it spelled out its concerns, but a serra angel would be nonsensical in actual practice. multicolored cards are generally a bad place to flex secondary and tertiary mechanics.

:duel:

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:58 pm 
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Red has powerful haste creatures more often than green does because red gets haste much more than green. But it's about the way tertiary mechanics are used. Black gets first strike on knights. Red gets extra turns on Final Fortune. White gets reach when flavor calls for it. This is what the mechanical color pie says about how haste is used:

"Haste is a weird case. Red is primary. Black is secondary, but mostly for numbers in Limited. Green is tertiary but is used by development for Constructed. So, there aren't a lot of green creatures with haste, but the ones that do have it tend to be good. This arrangement came about because design and development had different needs for haste in other colors; this was a compromise to make both groups happy."


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:15 am 
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If there's an hole for a bg card that would be filled very well by a flying sentinel spider (say because scavenge is a mechanic in the set) and a potential designer can't spot it because it is a "wrong" design, then I'd argue that's a shortcoming of theirs.

That radkos guy would be awkward because black has flying and red usually gets reach on creatures with power higher than toughness.
The dimir guy doesn't really seem like a card that would be useful for limited or constructed, but seems fine if a set needs it.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:48 pm 
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Red has had 3 reach creatures outside of planar chaos and 2 had higher toughness than power (though one of them had fire breathing). Gw creatures get reach even though they could get flying, sometimes you don't want flying. Haste and hexproof don't really synergize since hexproof wants to wait for an aura and cause haste's removal dodging isn't as important, but they could be good together if you have mana spare for a pump on the turn you cast it


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