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 Post subject: Introducing: Arsenal
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:04 am 
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Breezemetal Battleship
Artifact - Vehicle
Prowess, crew 2
:1::u::u:, discard this card: Arsenal 2 (Create a token that's a copy of target nonland permanent you control with converted mana cost 2 or less.)
7/5

Strawmetal Armor
Artifact - Equipment
Equipped creature gets +0/+2 and has vigilance.
Equip :1:
:3::w::w:, discard this card: Arsenal 4 (Create a token that's a copy of target nonland permanent you control with converted mana cost 4 or less.)

Rosemetal Crossbow
Artifact - Equipment
When equipped creature attacks or blocks, it deals 2 damage to target creature.
Equip :3:
:r:, discard this carrd: Arsenal 0 (Create a token that's a copy of target nonland permanent you control with converted mana cost 0.)

(Riding a robotic dinosaur.)
Anachronite Sergeant
Creature - Dwarf Knight
First strike
, discard this card: Arsenal 5 (Create a token that's a copy of target nonland permanent you control with converted mana cost 5 or less.)
2/3

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Last edited by preadatordetector on Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Introducing: Arsenal
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:22 am 
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It may be cleaner and a little in line with current wording conventions if you made it:

Discard this card, [cost]: Arsenal X (Create a token that's a copy of target permanent you control with converted mana cost X or less.)

Using Monstrosity as an example, it doesn't seem necessary to have "Pay [cost]" in the reminder text. Putting the discard cost with the rest of the ability cost makes it clearer for the player than if it was just in the reminder text.


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 Post subject: Re: Introducing: Arsenal
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:53 am 
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You really need your tokens to copy CMC, cause otherwise you can make a token of expensive card ONCE and then just use Rosemetal Crossbows to copy it for 1 mana.
Rosemetal Crossbow without ability is a very playable Equipment, and "copy a 0-cost permanent, including lands (!), tokens, and free artifacts" is a very playable instant. Together, they are OP.
(Seriously, turn 1 Mountain, Arsenal for , Arsenal for , Arsenal for , Arsenal for is a Legacy-level nutz. Arsenal is only safe for 2 or more mana. I'd say that for Arsenal X you need XCC mana, as a general rule of thumb.)
I don't like Arsenal. It plays the same on all cards with it.
But I'll make a card with it anyway.

Technoknight
Creature - Human Knight (U)
First Strike
Arsenal 0 -
2/2

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 Post subject: Re: Introducing: Arsenal
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:12 am 
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Did you see that ludicrous display last night?


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 Post subject: Re: Introducing: Arsenal
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:53 am 
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You really need your tokens to copy CMC, cause otherwise you can make a token of expensive card ONCE and then just use Rosemetal Crossbows to copy it for 1 mana.
Rosemetal Crossbow without ability is a very playable Equipment, and "copy a 0-cost permanent, including lands (!), tokens, and free artifacts" is a very playable instant. Together, they are OP.
(Seriously, turn 1 Mountain, Arsenal for , Arsenal for , Arsenal for , Arsenal for is a Legacy-level nutz. Arsenal is only safe for 2 or more mana. I'd say that for Arsenal X you need XCC mana, as a general rule of thumb.)

I had the feeling there was something broken there, too. I'd advise putting limitations, as nonland and nontoken, to avoid the most degenerate shenanigans. UselessCommon pointed out the land version, but imagine a vanilla 5/5 with cmc 5. Once copied once with Anachronite Sergeant, every Arsenal can pop a threatening body with outrageously low cost (imagine even a Rosemetal Crossbows and a Breezemetal Battleship in than situation: two 5/5 for 4 mana)

Quote:
I don't like Arsenal. It plays the same on all cards with it.

I don't completely agree, but there is the issue that if you do permanents who are either really strong or interact with themselves the rest of the deck becomes merely a tool to replicate those bombs, which I don't think is good design.

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 Post subject: Re: Introducing: Arsenal
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:04 am 
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Do token copies not copy mana costs any more


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 Post subject: Re: Introducing: Arsenal
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:21 am 
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Token copies of something copy that thing's mana cost (and thus its CMC) by default. Hence why embalm specifically has a clause to say otherwise.

Honestly, this mechanic seems like a bit of a nightmare in practice, keeping track of all these tokens of all different shapes and sizes. It's one thing on a card or two, but a whole mechanic that can copy - at instant speed no less - of all sorts of actual cards? Seems like it'd get real difficult real fast.


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 Post subject: Re: Introducing: Arsenal
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:57 am 
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Arix wrote:
Token copies of something copy that thing's mana cost (and thus its CMC) by default. Hence why embalm specifically has a clause to say otherwise.

Ah, I apologize, for some reason I was thinking it made sense since normal tokens have no CMC :blush:

(still, populate and land ramp are not very :r: or :u:, though Selesnya is half :w:)

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 Post subject: Re: Introducing: Arsenal
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:54 am 
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Malikot wrote:
It may be cleaner and a little in line with current wording conventions if you made it:

Discard this card, [cost]: Arsenal X (Create a token that's a copy of target permanent you control with converted mana cost X or less.)

Using Monstrosity as an example, it doesn't seem necessary to have "Pay [cost]" in the reminder text. Putting the discard cost with the rest of the ability cost makes it clearer for the player than if it was just in the reminder text.

Point taken.

(still, populate and land ramp are not very :r: or :u:, though Selesnya is half :w:)

Land ramp is a loophole that I dealt with now.

Mata Hari wrote:
Do token copies not copy mana costs any more

They still do, thankfully.

I don't like Arsenal. It plays the same on all cards with it.

I don't know if this was before or after the CMC debate went through. Being able to mana ramp though was not intentional.

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